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Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

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Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#111

Post by mmarq »

JetSetWilly wrote: post #31
rich_sasha wrote: post #4

Sad but true. I think the most fundamental change of Brexit is the overwhelming "you're not welcome" message. Visas, papers, bureaucrats, people can deal with. But the idea that you're at best tolerated so long as you pay your taxes is really off-putting (even for me, now UK citizen and long-time resident). Also, all these schemes forget that moving for a job is so much more than that - it is moving a life. Can you m…

> My impression is that another upside Silicon Valley has over the UK is that the US is genuinely a country of immigrants. Whatever hoops you have to jump through to get in or stay, I don't get the impression people are looked down on because they are foreign, once actually on the ground. Which is not so much the case in Brexitania. The UK is easily among the most tolerant and least racist of European countries. In i…

> The UK is easily among the most tolerant and least racist of European countries. In international studies, the UK scores very highly on all such measures, usually much better than continental European countries.

The point is not that the British society is more or less tolerant than the Italian society (and it certainly is more tolerant). The problem is that as a European I’ve never experienced xenophobia until 2016, while for some years after that every single Briton I talked to felt entitled to share with me some uneducated opinions about immigration and about my immigration status. These would range from some form of “you are a good migrant (sic) so you can stay”, to “only English people should live in England”. Some friends and colleagues, especially women who mixed with locals from the lower classes, have experienced more extreme forms of xenophobia, such as a doctor friend who stopped working outside of London because half of her patients were telling her to go back to her country (she was already naturalised then) on a daily basis. The locals trying to burn European flags (and failing miserably) weren’t really sending a welcome message.

Edit: poor migrant fix typoz

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#112

Post by alibarber »

makomk wrote: post #59
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #2

The challenge with most startup/entrepreneur visas is that different countries have very different rules and people don't show for these visas and compare them. Most people are forced to go through this because they are required by one way or another to head to a country. That in turn means that there is no desire to make the process any better. Relatedly Brexit is a really odd thing. I feel like absolutely nobody is…

The press has done a really bad job of explaining the truck driver shortage - mostly because they want to use it as an anti-Brexit weapon - but "truck driver immigration" doesn't solve the problem. Basically, a lot of UK companies were paying their drivers so badly that pretty much only people living in lower cost of living countries, using the much cheaper training and licenses from those countries, and generally br…

This is spot on. I personally know several people with UK Cat. C+E licences and there is a less than 0 chance that they will be working as lorry drivers any time soon.

[They work(ed) in the motor and film industries, the benefits and pay being in a completely different ballpark to haulage, even though driving large vehicles was a small part of the job]

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#113

Post by thefounder »

JetSetWilly wrote: post #31
rich_sasha wrote: post #4

Sad but true. I think the most fundamental change of Brexit is the overwhelming "you're not welcome" message. Visas, papers, bureaucrats, people can deal with. But the idea that you're at best tolerated so long as you pay your taxes is really off-putting (even for me, now UK citizen and long-time resident). Also, all these schemes forget that moving for a job is so much more than that - it is moving a life. Can you m…

> My impression is that another upside Silicon Valley has over the UK is that the US is genuinely a country of immigrants. Whatever hoops you have to jump through to get in or stay, I don't get the impression people are looked down on because they are foreign, once actually on the ground. Which is not so much the case in Brexitania. The UK is easily among the most tolerant and least racist of European countries. In i…

The UK has great PR, that's a sure thing.

>> without being a racist xenophobic hellhole.

Well if that's the bar UK has set for itself then it's all good but it tries to have its cake and eat it too.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#114

Post by rich_sasha »

cameronh90 wrote: post #80
rich_sasha wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I talk to my children in Polish. Almost never before Brexit would random people ask me where I'm from or what language I'm speaking. Now it's all the time, and often with a gentle roll of the eyes afterwards. We don't live in London btw. I'd never go as far as saying it's terrible, but it's markedly different than it was.

Obviously I won't dispute your experience, and I'm sad that you have to go through that. It's never something we've experienced in any part of the UK so far, and we often speak in non-English (well, me not very well - as a typical British person, English is my only fluent language). However, I should add that when I was growing up 20+ years ago (also not in London), this kind of thing was much more common. Indeed, it…

Well, again, it's hardly a big burden on me. It's the change I'm remarking on, not some absolute levels of hostility.

But for record, this experience is from benign and safe environments - playgrounds in nice part of the city, National Trust parks etc. I have certainly felt at times it is best not to appear "foreign" in less polished places, and probably wouldn't attract attention to being from Poland.

Funny story (in hindsight), from way back when - ironically before the word "Brexit" even existed. Around 2006 or 2007, I was (almost) mugged at knifepoint in South London. The muggers realised I'm not local, and asked me where I'm from. For whatever reason, I said "Czechoslovakia" - a country that hadn't existed for O(15 years). The muggers saw my old tattered phone and finally let me go, saying they were just messing. I sometimes wonder how that could have gone had I said I'm from Poland.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#115

Post by rich_sasha »

mmarq wrote: post #102
rich_sasha wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Noticed the empty shelves at the supermarkets? Something to do with no one being around to drive lorries? But ultimately, if you don't mind, that's good news to you. One thing less to worry about in a stressful world.

The majority of Europeans do not work on lorries or in supermarkets. EU citizens in the UK earn significantly more than locals and are significantly better educated. The real problem here is not lack of undereducated supermarket clerks (we can easily replace them with locals), the real problem is that software developers and lawyers and doctors and accountants and whatnot won’t cross the Channel anymore. Special visa…

There's both I guess. There are whole industries dominated by immigrants, too. And guess what, they are the ones now experiencing severe staff shortages.

Since labour frictions tend to be absolute, not proportional to e.g. salaries, they are always going to be less acute in better-paid, higher-profile jobs. It doesn't mean they are any less grating to the people who experience them.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#116

Post by moogly »

bserge wrote: post #48
moogly wrote: post #27

> demands that are almost impossible to meet (can you account for all your international travels over the past 10 years?) Yes, easily. That's some hyperbolic braggadocio. If you're a maniacal globetrotter, sure, I can see it being annoying or maybe even difficult, but "almost impossible"? Get a grip.

He probably means proof. I can remember where I've been, I have very little evidence though.

Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm having a hard time finding the new rules), but if it's anything like the old UK Visa application (which also had a travel history requirement), it's not super stringent and something you have to prove with extensive documentation.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#117

Post by orwin »

paganel wrote: post #29
rich_sasha wrote: post #4

Sad but true. I think the most fundamental change of Brexit is the overwhelming "you're not welcome" message. Visas, papers, bureaucrats, people can deal with. But the idea that you're at best tolerated so long as you pay your taxes is really off-putting (even for me, now UK citizen and long-time resident). Also, all these schemes forget that moving for a job is so much more than that - it is moving a life. Can you m…

> and London was by far better than most places Anecdotal, but London is the only European capital city where I got shouted at on he street, in the middle of day, for being a foreigner. It happened about 10 years ago and actually the shouts of the two English young-ladies were directed at my (now) ex-wife, but I was still surprised by it. If it matters it happened in a posh-ish area of the city, around Kensington, I…

I think Brussels is a real cosmopolitan city, not the size of London, but still. Lively even in winter. And Berlin is as well, but not really the same kind of cosmopolitan (i'd assume most people here wouldn't really like this kind of cosmopolitan). Lille used to be too, though a bit stale, i don't know if it has changed.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#118

Post by mmarq »

rich_sasha wrote: post #115
mmarq wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of Europeans do not work on lorries or in supermarkets. EU citizens in the UK earn significantly more than locals and are significantly better educated. The real problem here is not lack of undereducated supermarket clerks (we can easily replace them with locals), the real problem is that software developers and lawyers and doctors and accountants and whatnot won’t cross the Channel anymore. Special visa…

There's both I guess. There are whole industries dominated by immigrants, too. And guess what, they are the ones now experiencing severe staff shortages. Since labour frictions tend to be absolute, not proportional to e.g. salaries, they are always going to be less acute in better-paid, higher-profile jobs. It doesn't mean they are any less grating to the people who experience them.

The lack of lorry drivers is more likely to be caused by the changes to IR35. Lorry drivers would set up companies to use a tax loophole and not pay NI and income tax. Now they can’t, take home pay went down and drivers are harder to find.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#119

Post by orwin »

makomk wrote: post #59
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #2

The challenge with most startup/entrepreneur visas is that different countries have very different rules and people don't show for these visas and compare them. Most people are forced to go through this because they are required by one way or another to head to a country. That in turn means that there is no desire to make the process any better. Relatedly Brexit is a really odd thing. I feel like absolutely nobody is…

The press has done a really bad job of explaining the truck driver shortage - mostly because they want to use it as an anti-Brexit weapon - but "truck driver immigration" doesn't solve the problem. Basically, a lot of UK companies were paying their drivers so badly that pretty much only people living in lower cost of living countries, using the much cheaper training and licenses from those countries, and generally br…

From what i understood from a old French HGV driver who used to do inter-european trips:

The UK still have plenty of qualified drivers. Short-haul drivers have to be paid either the minimal wage of a country of the negociated sector wages if the sector Union is good. The Unions in the UK are worse than French unions (i wonder how it is possible) and did not secure any minimal guaranties, the drivers takes those minimals from EU + national laws. And while the pay is not that poor compared to other EU countries, HGV drivers also used to have a tax break and bonuses for crossing the channel. Now i think they lost this advantage (from what i understood). Also long haul UK -> portugal, UK-> Italy were probably the best paid trips, and are now filled by French drivers (probably other EU drivers too).

From what i understood, short-haul are the worst: worst pay, you have to get off your truck and help the stock or factory workers fill your truck if you don't want unbalanced cargo or worse, the hour are not much better than long haul except you don't have bonus day off.

> The whole thing was an artefact of EU rules specific to lorry drivers that allowed them to work here using cheaper (and I think less stringent) qualifications from elsewhere whilst also living elsewhere

No true for local haulage. For long haul, you do have companies who plot the trips to go through let's say Poland so they can take Poland's minimums on pays and qualifications. Not true for all EU long haul though (Uk-France it is quite expensive to cheat)

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#120

Post by Luc »

adamcharnock wrote: post #86
Luc wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May I ask if you found your property through a real estate website? I have been on the lookout for a while but I have a feeling I should be visiting the real estate agents in Portugal instead of browsing the web.

I ultimately found my place while being shown around by an estate agent. I did a lot of browsing on https://www.pureportugal.co.uk , and the place I ended up buying was listed on there, but I'd actually discounted it for some reason. I know some people here to buy without seeing the property but – generally speaking – I think it is a false economy. This is because: 1 - Places can look much different online. I suspect…

Thank you very much! That helps a lot actually. PurePortugal is mainly what I've been looking at. Good luck with the ISP, also very interesting.
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