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Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

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Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#71

Post by rich_sasha »

JetSetWilly wrote: post #68
rich_sasha wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand this compulsive need of pro-EU voters to construct massive straw men about brexit voters and Brexit Britain. It is possible and reasonable for a country to decide it doesn't want to be a part of the European "project" without being a racist xenophobic hellhole. No one is taking that right away. No one is saying UK is a xenophobic hellhole. But the "foreigners" en masse are saying they don't like…

I've not noticed any decline in UK immigration as yet. If there is a decline and it is a problem, then the UK has the ability to address it as needed. If there is not a decline then there's not a problem. Speaking for my own workplace the effect of brexit has been to replace European migrants with more Indian migrants, not to actually reduce migration. Unless you believe that continental Europeans have some unique ab…

Noticed the empty shelves at the supermarkets? Something to do with no one being around to drive lorries?

But ultimately, if you don't mind, that's good news to you. One thing less to worry about in a stressful world.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#72

Post by w_t_payne »

bb123 wrote: post #19
w_t_payne wrote: post #5

Brexit was an absolute tragedy for my family. Immediately after the referendum was lost, my children and wife started to experience a level of racially motivated abuse that we had not seen before. This reached a level where my wife felt she could no longer remain in the country and arranged for us to relocate as a family to mainland Europe. The move was not kind for me, and soon after I arrived I had a breakdown and…

> all the joy, happiness and hope seems to have drained from this land. That might have more to do with the 18 months of COIVD lockdown than Brexit.

The COVID lockdown has, if anything, improved matters. With most people staying home, the need to deal with aggression, hostility and abuse on the street is very much reduced.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#73

Post by throwaway210222 »

gpderetta wrote: post #57
CyberRabbi wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand the entitlement people from other countries feel to live in my country. I don’t feel the same entitlement to live in their country. Also, just because they are rich or can start a tech company doesn’t make them any more entitled to live wherever they want any more than anyone else. Just a very bizarre stance IMO and it seems one-sided.

People from other EU countries were entitled to live in your (UK) country. Suddenly taking that right away did upend people lives.

True, but article 50 has always been part of the Treaty on European Union (TEU).

So EU citizen moving to the UK must have known on the day they decided to migrate that their entitlement to live in the UK was always subject to this caveat.

It may suck, but it was never an right that could never be revoked.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#74

Post by yarcob »

beardedman wrote: post #30

A palpable amount of entitlement coming from the author. I like it (sarcasm). > can you account for all your international travels over the past 10 years Well, absolutely. > It has now become a long and challenging obstacle race It has, or is it maybe quite normal? > But it’s not only the UK — the United States has also made it difficult for founders to immigrate and settle in Silicon Valley. Like the new post-Brexit…

People in the EU are used to free movement. In my opinion it's one of the greatest political accomplishments of recent history.

Before Schengen, travelling across the border always carried the risk of meeting a grumpy border control agent and being subjected to abusive searches or interrogations. People not letting you past the border because they didn't find the right stamp in your passport and stuff like that.

After Schengen, all that went away and travelling within Europe has become so much nicer.

Of course people complain if you take that away again.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#75

Post by [deleted] »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #15

That's by design, border control was a selling point of Brexit, as brexiters saw only the bad side of immigration. Which to be fair, is no seamless nor without challenges or cost. I suppose the rational is: • Diminish the friction that multi-culturalism and diversity integration can bring. • Free jobs for the local population. • Having to share less of lands, resources, and infrastructures. And I see the point, but i…

[deleted]

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#76

Post by eCa »

CyberRabbi wrote: post #33
rich_sasha wrote: post #4

Sad but true. I think the most fundamental change of Brexit is the overwhelming "you're not welcome" message. Visas, papers, bureaucrats, people can deal with. But the idea that you're at best tolerated so long as you pay your taxes is really off-putting (even for me, now UK citizen and long-time resident). Also, all these schemes forget that moving for a job is so much more than that - it is moving a life. Can you m…

I don’t understand the entitlement people from other countries feel to live in my country. I don’t feel the same entitlement to live in their country. Also, just because they are rich or can start a tech company doesn’t make them any more entitled to live wherever they want any more than anyone else. Just a very bizarre stance IMO and it seems one-sided.

A lot of British people living in Spain certainly have expressed a similar entitlement. And many of them voted for Brexit.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#77

Post by JetSetWilly »

rich_sasha wrote: post #71
JetSetWilly wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've not noticed any decline in UK immigration as yet. If there is a decline and it is a problem, then the UK has the ability to address it as needed. If there is not a decline then there's not a problem. Speaking for my own workplace the effect of brexit has been to replace European migrants with more Indian migrants, not to actually reduce migration. Unless you believe that continental Europeans have some unique ab…

Noticed the empty shelves at the supermarkets? Something to do with no one being around to drive lorries? But ultimately, if you don't mind, that's good news to you. One thing less to worry about in a stressful world.

I haven't noticed any empty shelves i have to say.

There's is not a labour shortage of lorry drivers. There is increased demand, reduced supply (due to a pandemic on both counts) - but plenty of people who can drive a lorry and are licensed - who don't because salary is not competitive.

If your argument was that wages were kept depressed due to cheap labour from abroad, and how terrible it is that we now have to pay lorry drivers and fruit pickers competitively, I'm not sure that's much of an argument.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#78

Post by eCa »

throwaway210222 wrote: post #73
gpderetta wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People from other EU countries were entitled to live in your (UK) country. Suddenly taking that right away did upend people lives.

True, but article 50 has always been part of the Treaty on European Union (TEU). So EU citizen moving to the UK must have known on the day they decided to migrate that their entitlement to live in the UK was always subject to this caveat. It may suck, but it was never an right that could never be revoked.

I think most EU citizens thought it was about as likely as California seceding the US.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#79

Post by mytailorisrich »

gambiting wrote: post #70
mytailorisrich wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try moving from the EU to the US or from India to the EU. The EU is very special in that it has internal free movement. Now, obviously the UK has left so it controls immigration from the EU in the same way the EU controls immigration from outside the EU. Comparatively the UK is not bad. Try having to queue in the street from 6am and be treated like sh*t at a French 'prefecture' every year to renew your resident card.…

I know the humiliating experience of having to apply for an american visa as a tourist, so I don't have to imagine, thank you. And again, just because some people have it worse doesn't mean these issues don't exist. No one at my company is going "well, we suddenly lost access to a job market of 300M people, but well, people from India have it much worse so I guess it's fine". Like, I get your point, but it's not help…

I'm trying to show that the situation is not as bad as some claim it is and that all countries have immigration controls. I'm not saying that Indians have it worse, but I'm not saying that EU citizens deserve to have it better, either. It is absolutely possible to hire from outside the UK, even for junior positions, and that happens a lot all the time.

In my book reality checks are helpful.

Re: Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

#80

Post by cameronh90 »

rich_sasha wrote: post #61
cameronh90 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an alternate data point, my partner is a non-EU immigrant living in the UK. The immigration process was relatively straightforward, visa renewal was easy and she's rarely felt any hostility, unwelcoming or anyone looking down on her for being foreign. We do live in London, however my family are from elsewhere so we've spent plenty of time in other parts. Surveys generally say the UK and US attitude to immigrants i…

I talk to my children in Polish. Almost never before Brexit would random people ask me where I'm from or what language I'm speaking. Now it's all the time, and often with a gentle roll of the eyes afterwards. We don't live in London btw. I'd never go as far as saying it's terrible, but it's markedly different than it was.

Obviously I won't dispute your experience, and I'm sad that you have to go through that. It's never something we've experienced in any part of the UK so far, and we often speak in non-English (well, me not very well - as a typical British person, English is my only fluent language).

However, I should add that when I was growing up 20+ years ago (also not in London), this kind of thing was much more common. Indeed, it was quite a lot worse. A roll of the eyes was probably the best you could expect. Some of the more unsavoury characters would walk around at night looking for members of particular immigrant groups to beat up, and people would talk about this as if it was perfectly normal and fine.

Thankfully, that is no longer remotely acceptable. The long term trend has been greatly softening attitudes towards immigration. Perhaps the divisive Brexit campaign has knocked it back a bit, but when I compare us now to even 10-15 years ago, it still feels like we're practically a different country to how we were when I grew up.

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