Docker Desktop no longer free for large companies • Hacker News Board

Re: Docker Desktop no longer free for large companies

#481

Post by PebblesHD » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 4:39 AM UTC

nickjj wrote: post #283

For everyone who is against this change, can you please write up why? For a ton of small companies (anyone making $10 million or less per year) nothing is going to change and DD is still free to use. If you're at a big organization with let's say 200 developers chances are your company makes hundreds of millions of dollars a year. Even Docker's most expensive business plan would cost you 200 * $21 = $4,200 month. Pay…

Similar to siblings, our medium sized enterprise has a procurement process best described as ‘avoid if possible’, with the last product we onboarded taking over 15 months from start to finish for around a $50k annual cost. Our likely move will be away from docker because we can’t afford to be paralysed for that long waiting for bureaucrats to make a decision.

If docker wants to play like this they will need to be willing to partner with a ‘real’ services company who is already on a range of procurement panels to get a foot in the door, at least in my part of the world. If we could pay this as part of our MSA with a vendor we already use, $50k a year wouldn’t be so bad, but adding a new vendor and pushing that uphill? Not likely for us.

Re: Docker Desktop no longer free for large companies

#482

Post by gfosco » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 4:47 AM UTC

wahern wrote: post #460

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been fortunate enough to work at companies where engineers were trusted to make small purchasing decisions. It works well for a while, but eventually everyone accumulates a lot of random recurring charges and the company cracks down. $21 is nothing for a one-time spend. $21 per month per employee is now $252/year per employee, but now you also need someone managing all of these licenses and accounting. Every new…

Someone making $250k/year shouldn't think twice dropping $21/month on a tool that truly makes them more productive. A year or two ago I bought a personal license to Ubuntu FIPS after being urgently asked to debug an issue w/ Python's OpenSSL bindings. Unsurprisingly it turned out that my company had an enterprise license, and had I known whom to contact (which I didn't), I could have gotten a license key in a couple…

As someone who went from the PA suburbs and small IT shops (where 75k was a premium salary) to the SF startup scene and Facebook, one of the observations that has stuck with me was the incredible cheapness of my wealthy tech peers. It's hard to explain unless you've been around people who do a whole lot more with a whole lot less.

Re: Docker Desktop no longer free for large companies

#483

Post by discordance » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 4:52 AM UTC

SkyMarshal wrote: post #140

rcarmo wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the Mac, just get Canonical’s Multipass ( http://multipass.run ) and do an apt-get to install Docker into a VM and use VS Code to “remote” to it. It will automatically install the Docker extension inside the Linux VM and you’re set. For Windows, use WSL2 and do the same. Both can mount “local” folders, although the setup is obviously different. You now have a better way to manage containers than ever before.

Why run Docker inside a VM on a Mac, when you can just run the Linux dev environment directly inside the VM? That's just starting to sound like Docker for the sake of Docker. Multipass, Qemu, and Parallels can all provide a solid VM on Mac host. All you need after that is your dev environment VM guest image to deploy to the team. https://wiki.qemu.org/Hosts/Mac https://www.parallels.com/

I want to ship a dockerfile in my CI/CD pipeline, not a VM image

Re: Docker Desktop no longer free for large companies

#484

Post by hiram112 » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 5:03 AM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #459

dralley wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the instructions, they basically say that you still need a Linux VM or WSL environment to run Podman in. Which makes it not a complete replacement for Docker desktop, which handles the VM for you. So OP isn't wrong.

So that's a couple hours for the first dev to make a list of WSL setup instructions or a VM template, and 5 minutes each for every dev after.

Does Mac have any sort of built-in VM framework like Hyper-V?

I did not know that running basic Linux VMs was something you could do without downloading VMware or Virtual Box - which isn't as easy as just running a few scripts (especially in corporate environments where Brew and other tools might not be so readily available to all employees).

Re: Docker Desktop no longer free for large companies

#485

Post by hiram112 » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 5:14 AM UTC

cebert wrote: post #397

stevebmark wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What companies are offering $250k/year for engineers?

It seems like 200k+ is pretty typical for Engineers with at least some experience even in less hot markets like the Midwest. I know several developers in the Metro Detroit area making more than 200k base.

Are you talking about total compensation where you add base salary, payroll taxes paid by employer, health & benefits, 401K contribution, possible bonus & equity, etc?

I see $160K salary ceilings for general "senior engineers" for vast majority of non-FAANG companies in high COL East Coast city, so I'd imagine midwest is $25K less since housing is so much cheaper.

But maybe salaries are really exploding, and I just haven't been paying attention.

Re: Docker Desktop no longer free for large companies

#486

Post by patmcc » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 5:14 AM UTC

qeternity wrote: post #130

So many people in this thread don’t understand how enterprise decisions get made. The business license costs $21/month, probably less in reality. Do you really think that businesses are going to jeopardize the workflows of their $250k/year assets over a very core piece of software for $250/year? Any alternative has switching costs and risks. Companies will just pay this. I see so many people saying “just do these 10…

>>>Do you really think that businesses are going to jeopardize the workflows of their $250k/year assets over a very core piece of software for $250/year?

Hahahahaha, yes, absolutely. Because if the wrong VP gets this in his head, it's not $250/year, it's "almost half a million dollars over 3 years" for the 500 employees or whatever. I've seen it happen.

Re: Docker Desktop no longer free for large companies

#487

Post by mook » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 5:18 AM UTC

danudey wrote: post #420

jeremyjh wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fixing this has to be a great business opportunity. Surely someone is already working on it?

A simple local k8s installation with a simple but effective GUI on top, running containerd instead of docker and with a CLI wrapper for docker commands, would be more than enough for everything I need.

My team is working on https://rancherdesktop.io/ and it's scary how closely matches we're doing (depending on what you consider to be effective UI)…

Re: Docker Desktop no longer free for large companies

#488

Post by isatty » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 5:27 AM UTC

I think that the functionality provided by Docker needs to be a first class citizen in Linux, cli and user interface including and not just the backend. I don't like having my workflows tied to a private companies whims. Podman is a viable alternative, and while its tied to redhat, it's still better than Docker imho.

Re: Docker Desktop no longer free for large companies

#489

Post by mohanmcgeek » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 5:46 AM UTC

isatty wrote: post #488

I think that the functionality provided by Docker needs to be a first class citizen in Linux, cli and user interface including and not just the backend. I don't like having my workflows tied to a private companies whims. Podman is a viable alternative, and while its tied to redhat, it's still better than Docker imho.

Systemd has something called "systemd-nspawn" back when Docker was at its peak.

Not sure if its still around.

Re: Docker Desktop no longer free for large companies

#490

Post by 55555 » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 5:50 AM UTC

version_five wrote: post #401

jdwithit wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This poster has clearly worked at the same kind of companies I have. Plenty of them would gladly burn 10x what it would cost to just buy the damn license on engineering man-hours switching something that's inferior but free. Because it doesn't show up as an expense on the annual budget. The concept of opportunity cost is completely lost on a lot of business leaders.

Exactly. I've never understood why capital or cash expense costs are valued so much differently than salary costs. I've had jobs (like any manager) where I have complete leeway on how I "spend" millions of dollars of people's time, but had to to through all kinds of approval to spend even the smallest amount of money.

Yeah, that's what we decided when figuring this out at our company. Everyone is spending thousands of dollars a month of the company's money (their time). We either trust them to spend our money wisely, or we don't (and they should work elsewhere). So we don't have all these policies. Having said that, these policies are a result of size. You wouldn't spend money poorly when the company is just you and four friends in a garage. But when you're big enough, hiring problematic people is absolutely going to happen and they just see the company's money as a free money pot. We're in a middle ground right now, but, as we grow, are finding it hard to avoid trending more towards the meme corporate policies.