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If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

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Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#571

Post by BerislavLopac »

deanclatworthy wrote: post #412
debarshri wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but here in Netherland, you can give out 3, 1 year offers before you forced to give a permanent contract.

Three years sounds reasonable, one not so much. For the lack of security at one year, an actual contracting role might be more lucrative. Is it the case you can earn (quite a bit) more as a contractor, compared to full-time employment in NL? At least when I was doing contracting in the UK contracting roles could earn me almost twice as much as permanent roles (without the benefits of course).

> when I was doing contracting in the UK contracting roles could earn me almost twice as much as permanent roles

Sadly this is not the case any more; with the new IR35 rules it's common to get a contract that is taxed as salary, except it does not include any benefits. Contracts outside IR35 exist, but they are very rare and pay even less.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#572

Post by c54 »

hogFeast wrote: post #361
jelling wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did an interview with Reddit - whom I hope sees this comment - and they not only provided zero information about the context of the tech interview in advance, or whether it would be one, but also the interview itself was like playing a random version of tech Jeopardy, but without the category columns, and very few of the questions had anything to do with the job I would be doing. I have over 20 years of programming…

I interviewed for a front-end dev position (it was my first ever interview in the industry, I vomited before I got there so it was a pretty crazy day). I come in. The front-end guy starts asking me questions to try and solve something he is working on. No-one else is there yet. He is asking me about why a JS compiler is removing his comments, I say I don't know, I have never had that issue before...I make an off-hand…

> it was my first ever interview in the industry, I vomited before I got there so it was a pretty crazy day

I'm really sorry to hear this, that sounds incredibly stressful. The worst part about stress in technical interviews is that even under good interviewing conditions (which you clearly didn't have) it can really hobble a candidate to be stressed.

I hope this experience (or this HN post) doesn't scare you away from programming or interviewing at software companies in general. Those guys sound like jerks. There are good companies and decent coding interview routines out there.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#573

Post by bmn__ »

kodah wrote: post #387

I think SWE requires two things: - a centralized accrediting authority with uniform standards. - a apprenticeship model. An apprenticeship model let's you score folks while they're early in their careers and provides a standardized way to traverse levels of software engineering. This will show an engineer can write code . In my opinion, writing code is not the same as writing optimal code , and also isn't uniformly r…

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27662804

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#574

Post by bmn__ »

supergeek133 wrote: post #63

This would go along with some type of unionizing or organization.. but in the traditional trades (Electrician, Plumber, etc) there are education programs and apprenticeships before becoming "licensed". Maybe that's what we need here, something to gap the "I'm brand spanking new" and "I'm a senior" time period.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27662804

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#575

Post by dalmo3 »

xtracto wrote: post #332
_f1dq wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar interview with a different company last year. Three guys and me on a Zoom call with me sharing my screen trying to solve a coding problem that in no way resembled anything I have ever encountered in my 25 year career. When I got stuck they just stared at me. They would not give me any hints whatsoever. They just stared at me. When the interview was over I thought, "Is this how working with these guys…

Reading all of these accounts of horrors in HackerNews I feel my idea of creating a "TOEFL for Developers" would be perfect. (I am hesitant to describe my idea, but WTH, I'm currently not in a position to act on it, and they say ideas are dime a dozen so...): For those of you for whom English is not your first language, you surely know what TOEFL is: Test of English as a Foreign Language. The private company provides…

> Now, as a candidate/developer: I would love to have a "TOEFL" like certificate that I can show, with my proficiency. That way, I can "look for a job" passively. I don't have to be making countless of code interviews showing one time after another what I know. I only do it ONCE for an authoritative company, and everybody else can check my qualifications there.

One interesting thing about TOEFL is that it is, arguably, correct and complete. I.e when using the English language you use 100% of the skills the test measures, and the test measures all skills necessary to thrive in English. That's why you only need do it only once (every X years).

Engineering skills as defined by those matrices are so much more open ended that you'd need specific matrices tailored for different positions. E.g. a front end developer doesn't need to know what a linked list is. Then you end up moving away from the idea of ONE authoritative test.

Also worth noting that wherever I've seen it used, TOEFL is usually a mere checkbox to tick, and there are other, more thorough measures of skill involved.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#576

Post by hirvi74 »

poulsbohemian wrote: post #534
hirvi74 wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you do now? I'm looking to stay in tech (for now), but I'd really like to get out of web development at the very least. Though, I'm not entirely sure where to even begin my long journey.

My educational background was CS and business, I spent 23 years in a wide range of technical, managerial, and consulting roles, and now I sell real estate in two states (our market spans a state line). Would be happy to chat anytime about career ideas.

That's very kind of you, I think I will take you up on that offer. I've only been in the field for like 5 years as of next month. Do you have a preferred form of contact?

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#578

Post by jimmont »

software engineering is decades behind other engineering disciplines; it's in the phase of elixirs, etc; that's why it's "so hard" because the industry is optimized around various insular self-reinforcing patterns; like recruiting practices in the movie Moneyball;

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#579

Post by rambojazz »

_f1dq wrote: post #105
jelling wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did an interview with Reddit - whom I hope sees this comment - and they not only provided zero information about the context of the tech interview in advance, or whether it would be one, but also the interview itself was like playing a random version of tech Jeopardy, but without the category columns, and very few of the questions had anything to do with the job I would be doing. I have over 20 years of programming…

I had a similar interview with a different company last year. Three guys and me on a Zoom call with me sharing my screen trying to solve a coding problem that in no way resembled anything I have ever encountered in my 25 year career. When I got stuck they just stared at me. They would not give me any hints whatsoever. They just stared at me. When the interview was over I thought, "Is this how working with these guys…

I could absolutely never ever make anything with people staring at me. I need to be alone with my PC.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#580

Post by jbn »

yobbo wrote: post #338
HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, I was nodding my head in agreement as I read this when something occurred to me. This all requires that the interviewer be willing to interact deeply with the candidate. Our profession has a (well deserved, I think) reputation for having a high percentage of people who really don't like interacting with others on a peer level. Is it likely that a large part of the problem is that we have people doing interv…

> if your typical response to talking to another technical person is immediately to try to one-up them The psychological reality behind all this is even worse. The interviewer is not looking for new colleagues, he is looking to improve his own self-esteem and rank. The reward for rejecting a candidate is a feeling of superiority and an appearance of being irreplaceable. The interviewer and the candidate have opposing…

this is very well put, indeed both parties are set up to fail: - the interviewer has an incentive to fail the candidate, whereas the interest of the employer is to actually hire someone eventually.. - the interviewee is rated on something that has little resemblance to the actual job (difficult to succeed when you're not told what the admission criteria are...).
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