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If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

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Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#411

Post by pdimitar »

slumdev wrote: post #401
pdimitar wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ask for the client and salary range immediately. If they don't give you a straight answer, politely end the conversation. That's... actually a very good advice! But what if they counter it with "we'd like to hear your expectations first"? > If someone wants to put that level of effort into his career, he's better off aiming higher. You are right but I have zero clue how to aim higher, exactly. Hence my idea.

It depends on the type of recruiter. If you're working with an external recruiter (like an agency recruiter), they're not going to do that. They'll just give you the client's expected salary range. I've never had an external recruiter play this game with me. If it's an internal recruiter, you might get that question. In that case, have a good idea of what you're looking for, and throw out a number at the top end of t…

Hm. Mostly what I expected then. With one exception: I am in the EU so here $120K a year does not exist. Not even $100K is easily achievable although I've commanded the equivalent of ~$90K a year and will soon work for the same figure.

So I started wondering if I can pivot to the US market -- which was never a goal.

I appreciate your advice. Insecurity and the impostor syndrome can hit even super capable people (I've seen it). Your words help me reassert my self-confidence, and that's sometimes shaky. :)

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#412

Post by deanclatworthy »

debarshri wrote: post #400
deanclatworthy wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except job security. If you join a company in Finland on a permanent contract, once you have passed the trial period (6 months nowadays), it's quite difficult to get rid of you. Changing jobs can be a hassle. It means learning new names, potentially changing private healthcare provider, getting new equipment and setup, learning new company politics.

True, but here in Netherland, you can give out 3, 1 year offers before you forced to give a permanent contract.

Three years sounds reasonable, one not so much. For the lack of security at one year, an actual contracting role might be more lucrative.

Is it the case you can earn (quite a bit) more as a contractor, compared to full-time employment in NL? At least when I was doing contracting in the UK contracting roles could earn me almost twice as much as permanent roles (without the benefits of course).

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#413

Post by nitwit005 »

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #9
readams wrote: post #3

It's hard to get a job because there are a lot of charlatans out there and it's often very hard to get rid of them once hired. Even worse is hiring someone merely mediocre and not actively harmful. That said of course the modern coding interview is I think only very loosely correlated with quality.

> Even worse is hiring someone merely mediocre and not actively harmful. What's so bad about... mediocrity? For obvious statistical reasons, most companies, most jobs, and most people are mediocre (or worse).

> What's so bad about... mediocrity?

Nothing, but engineers are expensive, so if you can spend a couple thousand dollars to get better value for the money, you might as well.

Of course, some companies spend far more than that, which is probably not economical.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#414

Post by ndesaulniers »

debarshri wrote: post #308

We made the interview process very simple and traditional in our current organisation. 30 minute chat, judge whether the person can do the job or is a good fit, if yes then offer a year contract with 1-3 months of evaluation period. Changing a job is risky also from the candidate's perspective so if the person is pretending, the lies will catch up. Most of the scenario it has worked pretty well. Sometimes, people who…

How do I as a candidate compare job offers between an offer in hand vs a 1-3 contract that may or may not result in an offer?

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#415

Post by wccrawford »

NullInvictus wrote: post #147
DeBraid wrote: post #14

Very few firms want to hire juniors, while nearly all firms desire senior-level talent. This manifests inflated job vacancies because so many firms have an evergreen job posting for "Senior Full Stack". Because talent is scarce these roles rarely get filled (hiring managers expect million-dollar candidates to accept $100-200k compensation). Also, because lots of software requires specific expertise, there are vacanci…

Worse, many firms are put off by juniors for entirely preventable reasons. In their minds, juniors are undesirable because the moment they are trained up, they tend to jump ship for senior positions elsewhere. Why train your competition, right? The reason they jump ship is because the firm refuses to re-evaluate them for what they are worth, and keeps them on work meant to free up the company's existing senior staff…

I work at a fairly small company that hires juniors. We pay them well, and give them more responsibility in pay as we see them improving.

Most of them still want to move on, usually to change technologies or gain more responsibility even faster.

Sometimes they want to move cities for almost random reasons, and they're willing to just find a new job and do it.

So while I somewhat agree that devs don't want to move jobs, juniors devs often do, and I think they're a lot more likely to move jobs than senior devs.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#416

Post by poulsbohemian »

gifnamething wrote: post #399
debarshri wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I mean contract, here in Netherlands it refers to the offer. It is not a hourly contract position. It is position with all the benefits.

How would a mortgage lender feel about it?

Former independent software contractor turned real estate agent here... I am not a mortgage lender, but I work closely with them. You've likely need (at least) two years worth of bank and tax statements and a good credit score and then they'd be a-ok. Regardless of whether you are self employed or an employee, build those relationships with lenders early so they can advise appropriately.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#417

Post by jmuguy »

move-on-by wrote: post #213
Nbox9 wrote: post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

> In an environment I am unfamiliar with I had an technical interview with a company early last week, we did a shared session using VS Code. The interviewer wrote the function signature, and I filled out the implementation. I did great, according to the interviewer, and moved to the next set of interviews. The next interviewer, which turned out was also technical, ended up opening up a shared Google Docs to write cod…

I'd almost rather physically writing on a whiteboard than using something like Google Docs to pseudo code in. I don't know how someone even remotely technical would think that was OK.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#418

Post by lifeplusplus »

Guys I've the solution.. Companies should do an ISA agreement. And see JR and interns as students. The new model works like this...

- If you leave/fired - If you stay after 4 months you agree to ISA agreement.

- Agreement is that if you leave within 4 years you agree to share 20% of income up until you have paid $60k.

- ISA is valid for 4 years. Then it's VOID.

- ISA is also valid if you get a tech job.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#419

Post by stronglikedan »

debarshri wrote: post #308

We made the interview process very simple and traditional in our current organisation. 30 minute chat, judge whether the person can do the job or is a good fit, if yes then offer a year contract with 1-3 months of evaluation period. Changing a job is risky also from the candidate's perspective so if the person is pretending, the lies will catch up. Most of the scenario it has worked pretty well. Sometimes, people who…

Same. Except, we actually hire them as a full employee, with a 90 day "probation" period. That's just the 90 days we get where we can let them go for any reason without having to pay them unemployment.

It's worked out well so far, especially for those tasked with doing the hiring.

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