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If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

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Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#391

Post by theshrike79 »

Nobody wants to hire juniors and train them to be seniors because there are very few incentives to hire them.

Partly because projects are sold at such low margins that they don't allow for tutoring. Or the customer plainly states that they want 5 engineers with 10 years of experience each. It's a hard sell to make that 2 10 year guys and 8 juniors instead.

Partly because the junior will bolt to a higher paying job as soon as they've learned enough. People don't stick with companies for the long haul like they used to. Even if the pay is good, people just get bored and switch jobs.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#392

Post by addicted »

hogFeast wrote: post #337
debarshri wrote: post #308

We made the interview process very simple and traditional in our current organisation. 30 minute chat, judge whether the person can do the job or is a good fit, if yes then offer a year contract with 1-3 months of evaluation period. Changing a job is risky also from the candidate's perspective so if the person is pretending, the lies will catch up. Most of the scenario it has worked pretty well. Sometimes, people who…

This is something that I have never quite understood. In most of the places where software engineering is big, you have very loose labour laws. But companies treat hiring as if employees are signing on for life (compare this to how they treat downsizing). It is very strange, particularly given: the fact that almost no-one thinks current hiring practices are perfect, and the difficulty in producing a process that actu…

The cost of a bad hire is extremely high. It's not their salary or bonus, etc. It's how they can affect a team, the product, and the deliverables.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#393

Post by slumdev »

pdimitar wrote: post #383
slumdev wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 19.5 years of programming, but mostly web programming for the last ~12. I want to move away from that, I am sick of it already. There's always something more to learn and even though I don't mind at all -- it keeps my mind sharp which is something I want to keep all the way to my death! -- the churn of knowledge in there is exhausting. The churn of knowledge can be limited by choosing technologies that don't requir…

> IMO, a "code janitor" doesn't just sit around all day reading HN. When I use those words, I mean the type of job where you're expected to fix bugs and implement features and not much else. Yes. We are on the same page, just using different words. I definitely didn't mean "slacking off". I meant exactly what you said: have 3.5 to 4.5 hours of good solid programming work per day (because realistically that's what mos…

> But if that turns sour then I'd likely be looking for 2-3 "code janitor" jobs in parallel in order to protect my mental health for a while.

Oh, I wouldn't try to juggle multiple code janitor jobs. It only takes one good one to pay my bills. And it would defeat the benefits that I perceive in the code janitor job. If someone wants to put that level of effort into his career, he's better off aiming higher.

> Maybe I am doing something wrong, I am open to that, but I really am not sure that I want to expose myself to such toxic time wasters. Any advice?

Ask for the client and salary range immediately. If they don't give you a straight answer, politely end the conversation.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#394

Post by pdovy »

throwaway1492 wrote: post #5

A recent comment from reddit: This year I became a co-owner of the company that worked at for the past three years. It's a small development and consulting company and we're currently struggling to find new developers. At the same time, my girlfriend is trying to get her foot into this field. Since she's interested in a completely different tech stack than what we use, hiring her through good ol' nepotism is not goin…

It feels like there is an attitude here that you should be able to recoup the cost of training a junior hire by paying them below market rate for for their new skills. This just isn't reality, as OP has discovered.

That means that the true cost of a junior candidate vs a senior candidate isn't just their 1st year salary difference on paper, you have to count in the cost of training _and_ retaining the junior hire. That doesn't necessarily mean the math doesn't work - especially if the market for senior developers is much tighter than for junior developers.

Also the idea that you'd be mentoring for 16 hours a week one-on-one seems like it is either inflated or there was a problem. Maybe the candidate was a bad hire even for a junior role, or the mentor is micromanaging, or the work product expected was never appropriate for a junior developer - but something seems off there.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#395

Post by SergeAx »

Whiteboard interview is a non-specific skill for software engineer, but it is relatively easy to hone for any decent coder. Like a week or two 1-2 hours in the evening. It's like solving chess puzzles, and could be entertaining as well. I think that people who are ranting about "broken hiring process" are either mediocre coders or became old and ossified.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#396

Post by pdimitar »

slumdev wrote: post #393
pdimitar wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMO, a "code janitor" doesn't just sit around all day reading HN. When I use those words, I mean the type of job where you're expected to fix bugs and implement features and not much else. Yes. We are on the same page, just using different words. I definitely didn't mean "slacking off". I meant exactly what you said: have 3.5 to 4.5 hours of good solid programming work per day (because realistically that's what mos…

> But if that turns sour then I'd likely be looking for 2-3 "code janitor" jobs in parallel in order to protect my mental health for a while. Oh, I wouldn't try to juggle multiple code janitor jobs. It only takes one good one to pay my bills. And it would defeat the benefits that I perceive in the code janitor job. If someone wants to put that level of effort into his career, he's better off aiming higher. > Maybe I…

> Ask for the client and salary range immediately. If they don't give you a straight answer, politely end the conversation.

That's... actually a very good advice!

But what if they counter it with "we'd like to hear your expectations first"?

> If someone wants to put that level of effort into his career, he's better off aiming higher.

You are right but I have zero clue how to aim higher, exactly. Hence my idea.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#397

Post by mrtksn »

c4m wrote: post #326
debarshri wrote: post #308

We made the interview process very simple and traditional in our current organisation. 30 minute chat, judge whether the person can do the job or is a good fit, if yes then offer a year contract with 1-3 months of evaluation period. Changing a job is risky also from the candidate's perspective so if the person is pretending, the lies will catch up. Most of the scenario it has worked pretty well. Sometimes, people who…

This is super interesting! With a traditional interview and job offer process, a new employee can ramp up without worrying their job is on the line. And I think this is important, because it can take awhile to ramp up to full productivity, which can be stressful if the new employee feels like they're being evaluated already. Where I've worked, my new manager told me "Hey, welcome to the company. Please feel relaxed a…

Wouldn't people go from stages similar to culture shock?

1) Wow, very interesting company. I didn't know so many things can be done in different ways than I'm used to. Very smart ideas out there.

2) OMG, this company is full with idiots. Everything is done the wrong way but somehow it has not collapsed yet.

3) Yeah okay, some stuff is the way it is because it would't be feasible any other way due to the quirks of the business. Other things are the way it is because of historical reasons and it doesn't make sense to re-do it at the moment.

4) You know what, I think I understand what this company is all about. It's not perfect but people are actually doing great things here.

5) OMG, this business is crime against humanity. It shouldn't exist, I don't know how I'm supposed to do this anymore. Money can't buy me.

6) Well, the world is not perfect and I understand the imperfections and I can function. It's not like they are doing it any better anywhere else. I grew to appreciate upper management, now I understand our business and I'm happy to do my part.

3 months should be enough for a nice honeymoon stage. Both sides can know that longterm relationship is achievable if they have a nice honeymoon stage.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#398

Post by bojo »

roberthahn wrote: post #281
rsweeney21 wrote: post #169

It's because in software engineering your work product is confidential/proprietary and work samples take a very long time to produce. If you could review someone's code from their previous jobs, I think it would be quite easy to vet applicants. And it would be much easier to move from job to job. Instead we have to simulate work samples through whiteboard coding, pair programming sessions, take home coding projects,…

I have had good luck hiring developers by asking them to do a code review of something WE wrote (but framed as if a junior developer wrote it) This helps us look for good signal around their communication skills, mentoring skills, empathy, reasoning skills and software development skills. We used this review as a diagnostic - there are no wrong answers since we know they’re not aware of our style guide and convention…

That is such a refreshing approach to the process. May borrow this next time I hire a developer.

Thanks for sharing.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#399

Post by gifnamething »

debarshri wrote: post #375
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if yes then offer a year contract with 1-3 months of evaluation period Contract work is a great way to find good talent, but it's a different candidate pool. Lots of good candidates can't or won't give up their full time jobs to take a time-limited contract job. Those who can take contract work are often more talented and more in demand, meaning they're less worried about finding another job if the contract isn't r…

When I mean contract, here in Netherlands it refers to the offer. It is not a hourly contract position. It is position with all the benefits.

How would a mortgage lender feel about it?

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#400

Post by debarshri »

deanclatworthy wrote: post #389
debarshri wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I mean contract, here in Netherlands it refers to the offer. It is not a hourly contract position. It is position with all the benefits.

Except job security. If you join a company in Finland on a permanent contract, once you have passed the trial period (6 months nowadays), it's quite difficult to get rid of you. Changing jobs can be a hassle. It means learning new names, potentially changing private healthcare provider, getting new equipment and setup, learning new company politics.

True, but here in Netherland, you can give out 3, 1 year offers before you forced to give a permanent contract.
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