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If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

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Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#401

Post by slumdev »

pdimitar wrote: post #396
slumdev wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But if that turns sour then I'd likely be looking for 2-3 "code janitor" jobs in parallel in order to protect my mental health for a while. Oh, I wouldn't try to juggle multiple code janitor jobs. It only takes one good one to pay my bills. And it would defeat the benefits that I perceive in the code janitor job. If someone wants to put that level of effort into his career, he's better off aiming higher. > Maybe I…

> Ask for the client and salary range immediately. If they don't give you a straight answer, politely end the conversation. That's... actually a very good advice! But what if they counter it with "we'd like to hear your expectations first"? > If someone wants to put that level of effort into his career, he's better off aiming higher. You are right but I have zero clue how to aim higher, exactly. Hence my idea.

It depends on the type of recruiter. If you're working with an external recruiter (like an agency recruiter), they're not going to do that. They'll just give you the client's expected salary range. I've never had an external recruiter play this game with me.

If it's an internal recruiter, you might get that question. In that case, have a good idea of what you're looking for, and throw out a number at the top end of the range. If you're talking about a senior software engineer job, and you know that, in your area, they generally pay $120-150k, then say $160k. If you want, condition it based on total comp and benefits. Most Fortune 1000 code janitor jobs will offer a nominal bonus, anywhere between 5-20% of salary. Nothing like the huge FAANG bonus structures. But saying "depending on TC and benefits" gives you some leeway to ask for something even higher later on. And it tells them that, if they can pay you $150k plus a 20% bonus, then you could be happy with that. It leaves the conversation open.

If that makes them walk away, then you didn't want to work there. And don't feel bad negotiating like this even if you're going for a code janitor job. Compensation correlates with negotiating skill more than software engineering skill. It's just the way things are.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#402

Post by debarshri »

gifnamething wrote: post #399
debarshri wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I mean contract, here in Netherlands it refers to the offer. It is not a hourly contract position. It is position with all the benefits.

How would a mortgage lender feel about it?

You can ask the company to give an intent to extend or give permanent contract and that works with mortgage lenders here.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#403

Post by da39a3ee »

debarshri wrote: post #308

We made the interview process very simple and traditional in our current organisation. 30 minute chat, judge whether the person can do the job or is a good fit, if yes then offer a year contract with 1-3 months of evaluation period. Changing a job is risky also from the candidate's perspective so if the person is pretending, the lies will catch up. Most of the scenario it has worked pretty well. Sometimes, people who…

That's completely irrelevant to the discussion. We're talking about positions for which many people will apply. You're not going to be able to eliminate enough with a 30 minute informal "chat". Honestly, I think your comment says more about how programming still isn't taken seriously in Europe to a large extent (just look at the salary gap vs US).

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#404

Post by [deleted] »

debarshri wrote: post #308

We made the interview process very simple and traditional in our current organisation. 30 minute chat, judge whether the person can do the job or is a good fit, if yes then offer a year contract with 1-3 months of evaluation period. Changing a job is risky also from the candidate's perspective so if the person is pretending, the lies will catch up. Most of the scenario it has worked pretty well. Sometimes, people who…

[deleted]

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#405

Post by skrtskrt »

Clubber wrote: post #82
Nbox9 wrote: post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

>our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. They even do this crap to people with CS degrees. If a 4 year CS degree isn't enough, then people who do this have no idea what they are doing. I started in this field in 1997. The interviews were more old fashioned, a few tech questions, see if you were an oddball, then they'd get back to you. If you didn't w…

A CS degree often doesn't have jack to do with being a professional software engineer

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#406

Post by jodrellblank »

mateo411 wrote: post #190
serf wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i've had similar experiences over the phone. "How would you pull in data from an arbitrarily long -- maybe never-ending -- source of data in Python?" me : "What kind of data? What is it used for? How should it be represented afterwards?" Silence on the other end , followed by "Well that's up to you." I then fumble out a few ways to do it (verbally), to a recruiter that doesn't seem to understand anything that i'm say…

> "How would you pull in data from an arbitrarily long -- maybe never-ending -- source of data in Python?" The answer to this question is to use a generator. If you don't know this, then both people are going to wish that they had that half hour of their life back. Is this a good question? If you want somebody with a lot of Python expertise, then knowing about generators is a good thing. If I was interviewing a candi…

How does "use a generator" answer this question? A generator can yield an endless amount of data, but if they ask "our customers buy things 24/7 on our website, how would you pull the endless orders into Python?" and you said "a generator", I'd think you were trying to guess the teacher's password ( https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/NMoLJuDJEms7Ku9XS/guessing-t... )

It surely matters if the data source is push or poll or something else, matters if it's a lot of data or a trickle, matters if you need all of it or if you can miss some (and how much), if the source buffers it or doesn't. I'd expect discussions about message busses, queueing, buffering (maybe ring buffers), data stores (maybe SQL or No-SQL), as well as concurrency or parallelism expecting the question could move to "and what if there was 1000x more data?". "Process stock market data" needs more than "read a temperature every minute".

Or at least for a candidate to ask about some of them and be told "this isn't so complicated", not "it's up to you". If it's only asking whether you can loop over a generator instead of trying to read all the data up front, the question could surely be more focused?

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#407

Post by SilurianWenlock »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #348
debarshri wrote: post #308

We made the interview process very simple and traditional in our current organisation. 30 minute chat, judge whether the person can do the job or is a good fit, if yes then offer a year contract with 1-3 months of evaluation period. Changing a job is risky also from the candidate's perspective so if the person is pretending, the lies will catch up. Most of the scenario it has worked pretty well. Sometimes, people who…

> if yes then offer a year contract with 1-3 months of evaluation period Contract work is a great way to find good talent, but it's a different candidate pool. Lots of good candidates can't or won't give up their full time jobs to take a time-limited contract job. Those who can take contract work are often more talented and more in demand, meaning they're less worried about finding another job if the contract isn't r…

How do you find contract work in London?

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#408

Post by webmobdev »

debarshri wrote: post #308

We made the interview process very simple and traditional in our current organisation. 30 minute chat, judge whether the person can do the job or is a good fit, if yes then offer a year contract with 1-3 months of evaluation period. Changing a job is risky also from the candidate's perspective so if the person is pretending, the lies will catch up. Most of the scenario it has worked pretty well. Sometimes, people who…

If I remember right, Google found something similar too. Everyone knows Google makes the candidates jumps through a lot of hoops to evaluate them and hire the "best and the brightest". But an internal study showed that apart from the really top talent (the rare few), all that technical knowledge doesn't matter much in the long run:

> "Google originally set its hiring algorithms to sort for computer science students with top grades from elite science universities. In 2013, Google decided to test its hiring hypothesis by crunching every bit and byte of hiring, firing, and promotion data accumulated since the company’s incorporation in 1998. Project Oxygen shocked everyone by concluding that, among the eight most important qualities of Google’s top employees, STEM expertise comes in dead last. The seven top characteristics of success at Google are all soft skills ..."

> "Project Aristotle analyzes data on inventive and productive teams. Google takes pride in its A-teams, assembled with top scientists, each with the most specialized knowledge and able to throw down one cutting-edge idea after another. Its data analysis revealed, however, that the company’s most important and productive new ideas come from B-teams comprised of employees who don’t always have to be the smartest people in the room. Project Aristotle shows that the best teams at Google exhibit a range of soft skills ..."

Source: The surprising thing Google learned about its employees — and what it means for today’s students - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2017/12/...

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#409

Post by musingsole »

Nbox9 wrote: post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

> I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’

Someday soon we may accept that what gets classified as software engineering is actually an amalgamation of skills from an entirely different set of titles/careers, most of which treat software creation and management as a tool and means to an end.

I don't generally consider a blacksmith and a welder to be the same occupations. You can lump them under metalworker, but would you really expect the interview process for these roles to be at all similar?

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#410

Post by da39a3ee »

Nbox9 wrote: post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

Your comment explains why the variance is high; it doesn't explain why the mean should be low.

In other words, there flipside of what you said is that sometimes you'll excel and be offered the job on very attractive terms.

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