If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job? • Hacker News Board

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#371

Post by 908B64B197 » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:26 PM UTC

jaaron wrote: post #284

bonesinger wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One key difference is licensing. As a physician you have to take the USMLE Step 1,2,3 and then potentially other board certifications. We engineers don't have any of that.

Yes and depending on the field, you may have to do mandatory additional certification and training throughout your career. We have certs in software engineering, but in my experience, they've largely failed as an indicator of qualifications. Some hiring managers see them as nice to have, but I've also met hiring managers who are actively skeptical of certifications. We also don't have differentiation of software leve…

> Some hiring managers see them as nice to have, but I've also met hiring managers who are actively skeptical of certifications.

To me they are a red flag. Someone couldn't get a good job in a bull market straight out of undergrad and felt the need to get additional training...

> We also don't have differentiation of software levels or skills. If you're a programmer, you could, in theory, go program anything from web to AI to robotics. You don't have to be certified to work in nearly any industry. And we don't have formal hierarchy of skilled work, such as EMTs, nurses and doctors.

It still exists, it's just that it's informal.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#372

Post by philpem » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:27 PM UTC

Nbox9 wrote: post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

I had an interview with a company a few years ago -- on paper it looked like a perfect match. During the interview things seemed to go well, but things took a turn for the worse with the technical lead's interrogation.

He asked five or six questions related to C and C++ undefined behaviour, a very open-ended one about a technology I'd never used. I answered as best I can, but always opened with "I'd be referring back to the C standard and opening a JIRA task to fix the code". We got on to how I'd fix the code -- remove the UB, but only if there's a unit test covering it. What if there are no unit tests? What if there's no JIRA? Lots of what-if-maybes.

A few days later I was on a 3-way call with the recruiter and one of the guys that interviewed me. They spent the whole thing telling me how "any decent developer" should have known what the UB would result in, shouldn't have to refer to standards or books... and on and on. But as a courtesy, they'd be happy to make an offer.

Half the minimum posted salary, no benefits. It was right in the middle of the minimum wage and the "living wage" lines.

I declined politely, and the recruiter hung on the call...

"Wow. I don't know what to say. That's never happened before... do you mind if I share the recording of that call with my manager?"

They were still advertising to fill several positions when I last stumbled across them on Glassdoor a few months ago...

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#373

Post by 908B64B197 » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:28 PM UTC

UncleOxidant wrote: post #182

rsweeney21 wrote: post #169

It's because in software engineering your work product is confidential/proprietary and work samples take a very long time to produce. If you could review someone's code from their previous jobs, I think it would be quite easy to vet applicants. And it would be much easier to move from job to job. Instead we have to simulate work samples through whiteboard coding, pair programming sessions, take home coding projects,…

Do medical doctors face this? Their work is confidential as well - patient data is highly confidential.

No, but they have a legalized cartel to make sure there's never an over-supply (that would lower the price for the consumer, we don't want that!) that also gatekeep credentialing.

Meanwhile in Software there are initiatives for "Gender X of Minority Y can Code" and "Everyone can be an Engineer after 3 months of BootCamp".

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#374

Post by jandrewrogers » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:29 PM UTC

aNoob7000 wrote: post #32

dimitrios1 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To go in line with firms not wanting to hire juniors, I think generally firms do not want to invest heavily in employee training or education. I would, for example, happily make a shift from CRUD webdev and distributed networking to hardware and embedded and more lower level type work, but I doubt a firm would hire me near my current level and train me up.

I think you hit it on the nose. Companies don't want to invest in training their new hires. They just want someone to hit the ground running with as little hand holding as possible.

This is often the case. Another factor is that in many of the areas with a persistent shortage of talent is that it would require 18-24 months of training to really become productive. That's a big investment and people tend to have short tenures at companies these days.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#375

Post by debarshri » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:30 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #348

debarshri wrote: post #308

We made the interview process very simple and traditional in our current organisation. 30 minute chat, judge whether the person can do the job or is a good fit, if yes then offer a year contract with 1-3 months of evaluation period. Changing a job is risky also from the candidate's perspective so if the person is pretending, the lies will catch up. Most of the scenario it has worked pretty well. Sometimes, people who…

> if yes then offer a year contract with 1-3 months of evaluation period Contract work is a great way to find good talent, but it's a different candidate pool. Lots of good candidates can't or won't give up their full time jobs to take a time-limited contract job. Those who can take contract work are often more talented and more in demand, meaning they're less worried about finding another job if the contract isn't r…

When I mean contract, here in Netherlands it refers to the offer. It is not a hourly contract position. It is position with all the benefits.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#376

Post by Sohcahtoa82 » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:31 PM UTC

tsywke44 wrote: post #129

dimitrios1 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To go in line with firms not wanting to hire juniors, I think generally firms do not want to invest heavily in employee training or education. I would, for example, happily make a shift from CRUD webdev and distributed networking to hardware and embedded and more lower level type work, but I doubt a firm would hire me near my current level and train me up.

Why would any company spend 2 years to train a junior, only for that junior to jump ship? Oh and it's not that easy to even find a "trainable" junior. Even if you have a fairly strict hiring process, at least 1/3rds of the people coming out of the edication system will be draft busts if using sports terms

If you hire a junior at $X/year, and two years later, the "junior" jumps ship because the two years experience qualifies them for $X * 1.5/year, then the problem isn't disloyalty on the part of the junior, it's with the company that hasn't kept up their salary.

Junior salaries are low because they're a huge gamble. If after two years you know they're a decent engineer that has learned a lot, then you need to pay them like it.

It's something I see a lot of. Your "junior" that has been there for 2 years should be getting the salary you'd be paying a new hire that has 2 years experience. If they've been there for 3 years, and you've only been giving them 3-7% raises every year, you deserve to lose that engineer for someone that will pay them 50+% more.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#377

Post by debarshri » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:33 PM UTC

anonuser123456 wrote: post #350

debarshri wrote: post #308

We made the interview process very simple and traditional in our current organisation. 30 minute chat, judge whether the person can do the job or is a good fit, if yes then offer a year contract with 1-3 months of evaluation period. Changing a job is risky also from the candidate's perspective so if the person is pretending, the lies will catch up. Most of the scenario it has worked pretty well. Sometimes, people who…

> Sometimes, people who you think are not capable to do the job, often outperform expectations too. I think everyone, employers and employees get too caught up in requirements and forget that humans are very general purpose. And in particular, highly capable and intelligent humans can rapidly acquire skills. In particular, if you are hiring someone for a potentially lengthy career, capacity for change seems incredibl…

Key problem is software engineers are generally bad at hiring. Hiring is a skillset of it's own. For example, you are technical writer for writing user facing docs, similarly I think it is specialized job where you use cognitive abilities to make a judgement, use psychology to see how the person will be in various situation.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#378

Post by lowercased » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:34 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #348

debarshri wrote: post #308

We made the interview process very simple and traditional in our current organisation. 30 minute chat, judge whether the person can do the job or is a good fit, if yes then offer a year contract with 1-3 months of evaluation period. Changing a job is risky also from the candidate's perspective so if the person is pretending, the lies will catch up. Most of the scenario it has worked pretty well. Sometimes, people who…

> if yes then offer a year contract with 1-3 months of evaluation period Contract work is a great way to find good talent, but it's a different candidate pool. Lots of good candidates can't or won't give up their full time jobs to take a time-limited contract job. Those who can take contract work are often more talented and more in demand, meaning they're less worried about finding another job if the contract isn't r…

> Contract work (without benefits) is not an option for a large number of developers.

Probably should be...? You're typically getting paid more because of "no benefits". (I HATE the word 'benefits', FWIW).

Buy your own health insurance - it's more accessible in the US via ACA. Yeah, you might miss out on some 401k matching. Save it yourself?

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#379

Post by debarshri » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:35 PM UTC

0xbadcafebee wrote: post #335

debarshri wrote: post #308

We made the interview process very simple and traditional in our current organisation. 30 minute chat, judge whether the person can do the job or is a good fit, if yes then offer a year contract with 1-3 months of evaluation period. Changing a job is risky also from the candidate's perspective so if the person is pretending, the lies will catch up. Most of the scenario it has worked pretty well. Sometimes, people who…

30 minutes? Not even an hour? I'm a senior and I need an hour to work my way through deep questions (not just technical) to see what real-world experience the candidate has while simultaneously judging cultural fit. I prefer an hour and a half to allow time for the candidate to feel more comfortable and come up with their own questions. I definitely agree with the taking risks part. Hiring should not be about the mos…

Generally it is 30 minutes meeting. If the we and candidate have a click we extend the meeting. I think works different for different organisations.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#380

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:35 PM UTC

bonesinger wrote: post #245

jaaron wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. As a software engineer for 20+ years, I've talked with my sister, who is an ER doctor about this often. Most folks outside of engineering think our interview processes are crazy. Keep in mind, there's significantly more training that goes into the medical field, so there's more emphasis on the institutions. Where did you go to school? What hospitals or facilities did you work with? Your resume and references spea…

One key difference is licensing. As a physician you have to take the USMLE Step 1,2,3 and then potentially other board certifications. We engineers don't have any of that.

[deleted]