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If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

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Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#121
post #90

I agree 100% with the general ideas that "we ask stupid trivia questions when hiring people" and "nobody wants to hire Jrs". I'll toss out one other thing. The people hiring people SUCK at finding people and waste everyone's time in the process. The amount of Java / JavaScript confusion that persists among the people who are involved in just finding people reeks of incompetence / and maybe worse. Head hunting corps,…

I dunno why this was downvoted. Most recruiters have no idea how to program and thus really aren't qualified to be more than a contracted HR person / keyword matcher. Their main qualification is they have a special account on monster and dice to post qualifications that the hiring company gave them.

There are exceptions, but they are rare, and they don't work for the big recruiting firms. They are just body pushers.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#122
post #4

I've never seen this question posted by anyone who had either a CS degree or any nontrivial amount of experience. It might be hard to get a FAANG job, but it's not hard to find a $100k legacy code janitor job at any old Fortune 1000 in a flyover state.

> anyone who had either a CS degree

I see many, many more developers lamenting the "requirement" of a CS degree to get a software development job than I see lawyers lamenting the "requirement" of a law degree for a law job or doctors lamenting the "requirement" of a medical degree for a doctor job. If it opens doors, and you want that door open... get the degree!

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#123

This would go along with some type of unionizing or organization.. but in the traditional trades (Electrician, Plumber, etc) there are education programs and apprenticeships before becoming "licensed". Maybe that's what we need here, something to gap the "I'm brand spanking new" and "I'm a senior" time period.

> apprenticeships

Oh, man, to have somebody to do all the stuff I don't feel like doing...

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#124
post #14

Very few firms want to hire juniors, while nearly all firms desire senior-level talent. This manifests inflated job vacancies because so many firms have an evergreen job posting for "Senior Full Stack". Because talent is scarce these roles rarely get filled (hiring managers expect million-dollar candidates to accept $100-200k compensation). Also, because lots of software requires specific expertise, there are vacanci…

> (hiring managers expect million-dollar candidates to accept $100-200k compensation).

Wait, not even that.

Even if you are senior you can get that job (because, for example, you are from another country and suddenly you are "cheap" even if senior).

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#125
post #67
post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

I did an interview with Reddit - whom I hope sees this comment - and they not only provided zero information about the context of the tech interview in advance, or whether it would be one, but also the interview itself was like playing a random version of tech Jeopardy, but without the category columns, and very few of the questions had anything to do with the job I would be doing. I have over 20 years of programming…

Had a colleague have a similar interview with Reddit for an infosec/appsec role. They said it was a shit show, no feedback, never heard back. Sourced through an external recruiter, so Reddit is burning some recruiter's time churning through candidates. Picked up by someone in finance at similar comp a few days later.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not hard, you say? Give us some pointers then? I'd appreciate a legacy code janitor job for a few years while still collecting $10k a month. I need the break from stress.

Well, where are you coming from? Getting the first few years of experience is going to be the hardest--hardest relative to the rest of your career; it's not that hard by any absolute measure. Apply broadly, and take whatever comes. If a company is looking for a junior or mid-level SE and wants "1-3 years" of experience (which is common), your degree is that experience. If you have a CS degree and are in a low- or med…

> Well, where are you coming from?

19.5 years of programming, but mostly web programming for the last ~12. I want to move away from that, I am sick of it already. There's always something more to learn and even though I don't mind at all -- it keeps my mind sharp which is something I want to keep all the way to my death! -- the churn of knowledge in there is exhausting.

> If you have a CS degree...

I am not from USA and have no degree. I am 41 y/o and I'm a self-taught programmer ever since 12 y/o. Not sure how well that flies on interviews; I feel the US companies put a lot of value on degrees?

> If you apply somewhere and don't get a call back, don't sweat it, and don't take it personally. It just doesn't matter. Hiring is a noisy process...

Completely agreed. I've been in a rough mental and physical health patch for ~3 years now and I've changed more employers/customers than I wanted. Tech hiring is completely broken indeed. You're quite right.

> I'm going to offend a ton of niche fanboys now: Don't pick Vue, Go, Erlang, Haskell, or Rust.

I am not a fanboy at all. I've used 8 languages over my career -- Elixir (stepping on Erlang) and Rust included and I've picked them based on their true, proven and testimonialized merits.

I don't take offense with your statement at all. I presume you meant "aim for something huge and somewhat commoditized that has a ton of legacy code to maintain"? If so, I'll agree with you immediately; there was a period during which I've been barraged by offers from German and Swiss companies almost every day, for months -- all for Java and C# huge legacy beasts.

But sadly that's not where my heart is. :(

Furthermore, I am willing to bet my neck most of those are NOT a code janitor job at all. They'll require a ton of time and attention every day. If I'll do that I'll just find an Elixir or Rust job but at least be happy with the tech stack (if not the area -- the webdev -- which I hate with a passion nowadays).

> Now I'll offend the embedded and systems programmers: Don't pick C or C++. They're just not widely used in business applications.

I haven't been an active C/C++ programmer for like 12-13 years now but IMO you're not on the mark here: there are a lot of business apps but they usually belong in huge old mastodons that are too stubborn to move on (I personally know the VPs of engineering in two such companies!).

But overall you are right -- they are niche but not the good kind of niche; you need a metric ton of battle scars to even qualify there.

> Congrats, you are now qualified for the majority of SE job postings at non-tech companies.

I'd agree but I've neglected networking -- both physical and virtual -- for most of my career and now at 41 y/o I started to feel the negative effects of that. :|

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overworking, but probably not underpaying. I remember hearing about how much a SpaceX intern was payed and being shocked (it was several X my scientist pay)... Then she told me how many hours she was working, and it made some more sense (but it still seemed high -- scientists often also work 80+ hours)

I work in the same industry as SpaceX. They are in fact well known for pay that would be average-at-best in a sane work environment coupled with an absolutely insane work environment. When I was in college, my only goal was to get a job at SpaceX. After getting a few internships and talking to some people in the industry, my only goal now is to never be so desperate for work that I accept a job at SpaceX. Their inter…

A friend's son is in Aerospace Engineering, attends UIUC in Central Illinois. "SlaveX" is the nickname colloquially used.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#128
post #105
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did an interview with Reddit - whom I hope sees this comment - and they not only provided zero information about the context of the tech interview in advance, or whether it would be one, but also the interview itself was like playing a random version of tech Jeopardy, but without the category columns, and very few of the questions had anything to do with the job I would be doing. I have over 20 years of programming…

I had a similar interview with a different company last year. Three guys and me on a Zoom call with me sharing my screen trying to solve a coding problem that in no way resembled anything I have ever encountered in my 25 year career. When I got stuck they just stared at me. They would not give me any hints whatsoever. They just stared at me. When the interview was over I thought, "Is this how working with these guys…

"Is this how working with these guys is going to be?"

Unfortunately, yes. Young engineers are terrible at communication and working with others. Partly due to workplace incentives and partly because you must realize that entire generations have grown up with computers and not people.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#129
post #14

Very few firms want to hire juniors, while nearly all firms desire senior-level talent. This manifests inflated job vacancies because so many firms have an evergreen job posting for "Senior Full Stack". Because talent is scarce these roles rarely get filled (hiring managers expect million-dollar candidates to accept $100-200k compensation). Also, because lots of software requires specific expertise, there are vacanci…

To go in line with firms not wanting to hire juniors, I think generally firms do not want to invest heavily in employee training or education. I would, for example, happily make a shift from CRUD webdev and distributed networking to hardware and embedded and more lower level type work, but I doubt a firm would hire me near my current level and train me up.

Why would any company spend 2 years to train a junior, only for that junior to jump ship?

Oh and it's not that easy to even find a "trainable" junior. Even if you have a fairly strict hiring process, at least 1/3rds of the people coming out of the edication system will be draft busts if using sports terms

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#130
> Waited hoping one day someone will hire me without requiring me to white-boarding. Yep it is worse than water-boarding.

Never tried waterboarding, but my issue with white boarding is that it’s deeply subjective. With working code you at least can judge the correctness straight away with a real piece of runnable code. You can also observe how the candidate reasons around the problem and how they formulate and test hypotheses. With a white board you can observe the candi^Wvictim making a table test, a term I first heard in the 70s and last heard in the early 80s. It is just cruel.

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