If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job? • Hacker News Board

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#341

Post by rsynnott » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:04 PM UTC

cratermoon wrote: post #288

dopylitty wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A doctor equivalent of fizzbuzz could be “what do you prescribe for a viral infection with no indication of a secondary infection” and from what I’ve heard there are a lot of doctors failing that one during the COVID pandemic by prescribing antibiotics.

> prescribing antibiotics. I'd hire that one over anyone pushing horse de-wormer, anti-malarial drugs, or homeopathic remedies.

Well, it's less dangerous than the first two, generally, but roughly equivalent to the third, for covid.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#342

Post by 908B64B197 » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:07 PM UTC

DeBraid wrote: post #14

Very few firms want to hire juniors, while nearly all firms desire senior-level talent. This manifests inflated job vacancies because so many firms have an evergreen job posting for "Senior Full Stack". Because talent is scarce these roles rarely get filled (hiring managers expect million-dollar candidates to accept $100-200k compensation). Also, because lots of software requires specific expertise, there are vacanci…

> This manifests inflated job vacancies because so many firms have an evergreen job posting for "Senior Full Stack". Because talent is scarce these roles rarely get filled (hiring managers expect million-dollar candidates to accept $100-200k compensation).

At a lot of non-tech companies, the trick is to get hired as a consultant.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#343

Post by bostik » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:07 PM UTC

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #242

mikepurvis wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood the heavy emphasis on in-interview coding or brain teasers. To the extent that I've participated in the hiring process (both as an IC and a manager), 80% of the interview is assessing culture/personality/ethic fit; that is, the basic "do I want to work with this person" question. The technical competence check is all retrospective, hearing them talk about prior projects and what the design and i…

You know, I was nodding my head in agreement as I read this when something occurred to me. This all requires that the interviewer be willing to interact deeply with the candidate. Our profession has a (well deserved, I think) reputation for having a high percentage of people who really don't like interacting with others on a peer level. Is it likely that a large part of the problem is that we have people doing interv…

Some years back I wrote a post about interviewing, from the point of view of the _interviewer_. I emphasised that during the interview, the candidate is the most important person in the world.

It only later dawned to me that our industry has a non-trivial fraction of people for whom empathy is a foreign concept. They're not sociopaths, because those folks can at least feign empathy - we're talking about individuals who can't see themselves in another person's situation at all. On top of that, we don't really provide actual interview training to engineers either. Out of all the people I personally know in London, only one (1) has received formal interview training.

Is it any wonder that the interview gauntlet is such an awful experience for pretty much everyone?

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#344

Post by mikepurvis » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:07 PM UTC

yobbo wrote: post #338

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, I was nodding my head in agreement as I read this when something occurred to me. This all requires that the interviewer be willing to interact deeply with the candidate. Our profession has a (well deserved, I think) reputation for having a high percentage of people who really don't like interacting with others on a peer level. Is it likely that a large part of the problem is that we have people doing interv…

> if your typical response to talking to another technical person is immediately to try to one-up them The psychological reality behind all this is even worse. The interviewer is not looking for new colleagues, he is looking to improve his own self-esteem and rank. The reward for rejecting a candidate is a feeling of superiority and an appearance of being irreplaceable. The interviewer and the candidate have opposing…

Ugh, that's horrifying. I don't think I've been the interviewer and not felt the exact opposite, like "I'm desperate to have more people on the team ASAP; do we satisfice here and make it work or hold out?"

But then I've always been interviewing for my own future colleagues/boss/reports. I guess the dynamics could be different if you're in a huge company and just generically interviewing for new cogs that might get slotted anywhere.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#345

Post by twistedpair » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:08 PM UTC

digitalmouse wrote: post #226

move-on-by wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In an environment I am unfamiliar with I had an technical interview with a company early last week, we did a shared session using VS Code. The interviewer wrote the function signature, and I filled out the implementation. I did great, according to the interviewer, and moved to the next set of interviews. The next interviewer, which turned out was also technical, ended up opening up a shared Google Docs to write cod…

reminds of of the systems design interview I had with Google, the interviewer had his webcam off, barely spoke English and had me trying to make diagrams of system architecture in google docs with no reference of what he was actually looking for it was like sitting in a confusing nightmare for an hour

Had a similar Google interview ~10y ago, shared GDoc. Phone connection was poor, interviewer refused let me try another line. I'd ask clarifying questions and he'd just keep acting annoyed and saying "Are you done yet?"

Frankly the most annoying interviewer I ever encountered. Served as a low water mark and inspiration for me to be as helpful, thoughtful, and kind as I could be in the next 100 phone screens/interviews I conducted for my employees.

FWIW, I've been to many a Google campus and know many employees there, so I think this was an outlier.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#346

Post by 908B64B197 » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:08 PM UTC

mamcx wrote: post #124

DeBraid wrote: post #14

Very few firms want to hire juniors, while nearly all firms desire senior-level talent. This manifests inflated job vacancies because so many firms have an evergreen job posting for "Senior Full Stack". Because talent is scarce these roles rarely get filled (hiring managers expect million-dollar candidates to accept $100-200k compensation). Also, because lots of software requires specific expertise, there are vacanci…

> (hiring managers expect million-dollar candidates to accept $100-200k compensation). Wait, not even that. Even if you are senior you can get that job (because, for example, you are from another country and suddenly you are "cheap" even if senior).

> because, for example, you are from another country and suddenly you are "cheap" even if senior

That's a red flag. Because we all know the top of the market, no matter where, is working at SV rates.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#347

Post by Hermitian909 » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:08 PM UTC

bern4444 wrote: post #328

DeBraid wrote: post #14

Very few firms want to hire juniors, while nearly all firms desire senior-level talent. This manifests inflated job vacancies because so many firms have an evergreen job posting for "Senior Full Stack". Because talent is scarce these roles rarely get filled (hiring managers expect million-dollar candidates to accept $100-200k compensation). Also, because lots of software requires specific expertise, there are vacanci…

I take a different take here. Juniors write a lot of code. Often significant amounts for a company's products and services. They're the ones who are implementing all the decisions that seniors spend their time making in all their meetings. Most senior engineers I've seen have most of their days filled with meetings with very little actual coding time. The seniors are valuable, making decisions, coming up with solutio…

While of course companies would love senior engineers willing to accept a junior salary I'd say

> Most senior engineers I've seen have most of their days filled with meetings with very little actual coding time.

Is actually a symptom of the shortage of senior engineers. Big companies that can afford to hire as much talent as they want actually will let seniors write code all day (my company does) because they have the economies of scale that lets them afford doing so; no one else can.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#348

Post by PragmaticPulp » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:08 PM UTC

debarshri wrote: post #308

We made the interview process very simple and traditional in our current organisation. 30 minute chat, judge whether the person can do the job or is a good fit, if yes then offer a year contract with 1-3 months of evaluation period. Changing a job is risky also from the candidate's perspective so if the person is pretending, the lies will catch up. Most of the scenario it has worked pretty well. Sometimes, people who…

> if yes then offer a year contract with 1-3 months of evaluation period

Contract work is a great way to find good talent, but it's a different candidate pool. Lots of good candidates can't or won't give up their full time jobs to take a time-limited contract job.

Those who can take contract work are often more talented and more in demand, meaning they're less worried about finding another job if the contract isn't renewed. Contract work (without benefits) is not an option for a large number of developers.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#349

Post by 908B64B197 » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:09 PM UTC

Clubber wrote: post #82

Nbox9 wrote: post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

>our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. They even do this crap to people with CS degrees. If a 4 year CS degree isn't enough, then people who do this have no idea what they are doing. I started in this field in 1997. The interviews were more old fashioned, a few tech questions, see if you were an oddball, then they'd get back to you. If you didn't w…

> They even do this crap to people with CS degrees. If a 4 year CS degree isn't enough, then people who do this have no idea what they are doing.

Not all CS degrees are created equal I'm afraid.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#350

Post by anonuser123456 » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 6:09 PM UTC

debarshri wrote: post #308

We made the interview process very simple and traditional in our current organisation. 30 minute chat, judge whether the person can do the job or is a good fit, if yes then offer a year contract with 1-3 months of evaluation period. Changing a job is risky also from the candidate's perspective so if the person is pretending, the lies will catch up. Most of the scenario it has worked pretty well. Sometimes, people who…

> Sometimes, people who you think are not capable to do the job, often outperform expectations too.

I think everyone, employers and employees get too caught up in requirements and forget that humans are very general purpose. And in particular, highly capable and intelligent humans can rapidly acquire skills.

In particular, if you are hiring someone for a potentially lengthy career, capacity for change seems incredibly more important than immediate skill.