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If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

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Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#281

Post by roberthahn »

rsweeney21 wrote: post #169

It's because in software engineering your work product is confidential/proprietary and work samples take a very long time to produce. If you could review someone's code from their previous jobs, I think it would be quite easy to vet applicants. And it would be much easier to move from job to job. Instead we have to simulate work samples through whiteboard coding, pair programming sessions, take home coding projects,…

I have had good luck hiring developers by asking them to do a code review of something WE wrote (but framed as if a junior developer wrote it)

This helps us look for good signal around their communication skills, mentoring skills, empathy, reasoning skills and software development skills.

We used this review as a diagnostic - there are no wrong answers since we know they’re not aware of our style guide and conventions.

It worked for us. Maybe it could work for others.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#282

Post by dangwu »

WalterBright wrote: post #237
rsweeney21 wrote: post #169

It's because in software engineering your work product is confidential/proprietary and work samples take a very long time to produce. If you could review someone's code from their previous jobs, I think it would be quite easy to vet applicants. And it would be much easier to move from job to job. Instead we have to simulate work samples through whiteboard coding, pair programming sessions, take home coding projects,…

That's one advantage to working on open source. Your work is all just a click away.

Have you ever gotten a job from just showing off your open source work, though?

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#283

Post by mateo411 »

timr wrote: post #259
mateo411 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "How would you pull in data from an arbitrarily long -- maybe never-ending -- source of data in Python?" The answer to this question is to use a generator. If you don't know this, then both people are going to wish that they had that half hour of their life back. Is this a good question? If you want somebody with a lot of Python expertise, then knowing about generators is a good thing. If I was interviewing a candi…

> > "How would you pull in data from an arbitrarily long -- maybe never-ending - source of data in Python?" > The answer to this question is to use a generator. If you don't know this, then both people are going to wish that they had that half hour of their life back. That's funny...I've implemented more than my share of such things in a long career, and my first intuition for an answer to the question, as phrased, w…

> According to you, I'd be so wrong that I'm a waste of time.

I don't think so, because you actually know about generators. If you were hiring for people who had a lot of Python experience, but didn't know about generators, that would be a bad sign. You would probably want to ask a some other questions, so you would have a more complete picture of what the candidate knows.

My main point is that the company's interview process is flawed.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#284

Post by jaaron »

bonesinger wrote: post #245
jaaron wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. As a software engineer for 20+ years, I've talked with my sister, who is an ER doctor about this often. Most folks outside of engineering think our interview processes are crazy. Keep in mind, there's significantly more training that goes into the medical field, so there's more emphasis on the institutions. Where did you go to school? What hospitals or facilities did you work with? Your resume and references spea…

One key difference is licensing. As a physician you have to take the USMLE Step 1,2,3 and then potentially other board certifications. We engineers don't have any of that.

Yes and depending on the field, you may have to do mandatory additional certification and training throughout your career.

We have certs in software engineering, but in my experience, they've largely failed as an indicator of qualifications. Some hiring managers see them as nice to have, but I've also met hiring managers who are actively skeptical of certifications.

We also don't have differentiation of software levels or skills. If you're a programmer, you could, in theory, go program anything from web to AI to robotics. You don't have to be certified to work in nearly any industry. And we don't have formal hierarchy of skilled work, such as EMTs, nurses and doctors.

We're a relatively young industry that just hasn't worked things out yet and, to be honest, in the United States, there isn't pressure by employers to get our act together. The engineers themselves are in charge often and we're skeptical of boards and authority. We have too many stories of folks making it big with no formal education. Those with the money aren't demanding change because the current system "works."

It's possible software engineering will someday evolve into a boring respectable profession, but right now it's still a creative field of fads, trends, rock stars and super stars (let alone ninjas and wizards).

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#285

Post by faizshah »

jonfw wrote: post #231
faizshah wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually disagree with this (if you’re aiming to work at a company between Unicorn and FANG size), I think there’s 2 parts to getting hired as a new grad or getting an internship as a student. The first part is the University Hiring recruiters determining whether out of the 1000+ resumes they have read you are likely to have the basic skills required to learn to be a FANG engineer. In this part they don’t actually…

I'm just explaining what worked for me- I'm in Raleigh NC, so there were no FANGs here a year and half ago when I was in the market. But I did secure offers at the two biggest tech companies in the area, IBM and Cisco. I had no open source contributions, no hack-a-thons, and no side projects with users. No experience or internships whatsoever, I had work experience in the service industry that I didn't put on my resu…

Sorry I think I may have come off as criticizing you when I meant it as a more general point. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#286

Post by msie »

JohnBooty wrote: post #220
rsweeney21 wrote: post #169

It's because in software engineering your work product is confidential/proprietary and work samples take a very long time to produce. If you could review someone's code from their previous jobs, I think it would be quite easy to vet applicants. And it would be much easier to move from job to job. Instead we have to simulate work samples through whiteboard coding, pair programming sessions, take home coding projects,…

Instead we have to simulate work samples through whiteboard coding, pair programming sessions, take home coding projects, coding knowledge tests, etc. Very small sample size but we've had good results skipping coding exams entirely, and simply talking through some scenarios with candidates. - give them a hypothetical problem ("the page is loading slowly") and role play how they'd troubleshoot it - do they understand…

"tell us about a tricky technical challenge you solved"

I have so much trouble remembering previous challenges I've overcome. I don't ruminate on them, I just move on...

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#287

Post by mateo411 »

jph wrote: post #224
mateo411 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "How would you pull in data from an arbitrarily long -- maybe never-ending -- source of data in Python?" The answer to this question is to use a generator. If you don't know this, then both people are going to wish that they had that half hour of their life back. Is this a good question? If you want somebody with a lot of Python expertise, then knowing about generators is a good thing. If I was interviewing a candi…

How about asyncio streams.py?

That seems like a good answer too.

I think that's only applicable if you are reading from a socket. Although I don't know too much about asyncio streams.py, so I'm not going to get a job at this company.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#288

Post by cratermoon »

dopylitty wrote: post #248
6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bad doctor is relative. I expect that most doctors who have pass through that gauntlet can pass the doctor equivalent of fizzbuzz, which already is a lot different than our industry.

A doctor equivalent of fizzbuzz could be “what do you prescribe for a viral infection with no indication of a secondary infection” and from what I’ve heard there are a lot of doctors failing that one during the COVID pandemic by prescribing antibiotics.

> prescribing antibiotics.

I'd hire that one over anyone pushing horse de-wormer, anti-malarial drugs, or homeopathic remedies.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#289

Post by NationalPark »

vlovich123 wrote: post #252
JohnBooty wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead we have to simulate work samples through whiteboard coding, pair programming sessions, take home coding projects, coding knowledge tests, etc. Very small sample size but we've had good results skipping coding exams entirely, and simply talking through some scenarios with candidates. - give them a hypothetical problem ("the page is loading slowly") and role play how they'd troubleshoot it - do they understand…

> - give them a hypothetical problem ("the page is loading slowly") and role play how they'd troubleshoot it - do they understand how different bits of the stack fit together? have they ruled out network issues before digging into the code? etc. I don't know. I think I'm pretty good at troubleshooting on the job (since I can be the one to troubleshoot & solve the trickier bugs) but thinking about doing it in an inter…

Surely an interview scenario is far less stressful than an actual outage though? Your performance in the real one is a lot more important for your job/career than the interview is.
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