If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job? • Hacker News Board

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#231

Post by jonfw » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 4:55 PM UTC

faizshah wrote: post #175

jonfw wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can build a specialized skill set you can make things much easier. When I got out of school with no experience, no internships and a degree from a second tier state school, I still had good luck on the job hunt. What worked for me was that I had been studying Kubernetes and was probably the cheapest guy on the market with that skillset :)

I actually disagree with this (if you’re aiming to work at a company between Unicorn and FANG size), I think there’s 2 parts to getting hired as a new grad or getting an internship as a student. The first part is the University Hiring recruiters determining whether out of the 1000+ resumes they have read you are likely to have the basic skills required to learn to be a FANG engineer. In this part they don’t actually…

I'm just explaining what worked for me- I'm in Raleigh NC, so there were no FANGs here a year and half ago when I was in the market. But I did secure offers at the two biggest tech companies in the area, IBM and Cisco.

I had no open source contributions, no hack-a-thons, and no side projects with users. No experience or internships whatsoever, I had work experience in the service industry that I didn't put on my resume. GPA barely above a 3

All I had were side projects on github, listed prominently on my resume, that showcased skills. My side projects were all toy projects- things like a tiny Go API with a dockerfile and Kubernetes YAMLs, an arduino project that creates a CSV based on inputs from a GPS sensor, etc.

When my interviews went well, it was because I had demonstrable expertise in Kubernetes

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#232

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 4:55 PM UTC

UncleOxidant wrote: post #219

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medical doctors have licenses which include exams and all sort of other barriers before they’re a ‘real’ independent doctor.

Sure, but that doesn't mean they're a good doctor. Most of us have had experiences with bad doctors. The exams they took could have been decades ago, but what does that tell us about how they've performed recently?

Bad doctor is relative. I expect that most doctors who have pass through that gauntlet can pass the doctor equivalent of fizzbuzz, which already is a lot different than our industry.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#233

Post by mywittyname » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 4:56 PM UTC

rsweeney21 wrote: post #169

It's because in software engineering your work product is confidential/proprietary and work samples take a very long time to produce. If you could review someone's code from their previous jobs, I think it would be quite easy to vet applicants. And it would be much easier to move from job to job. Instead we have to simulate work samples through whiteboard coding, pair programming sessions, take home coding projects,…

> If you could review someone's code from their previous jobs, I think it would be quite easy to vet applicants.

I disagree, somewhat. In positions where I work with a medium or large team, any code of mine you reviewed would give you an idea of how the team leads want code to be written, not really how I as a candidate write code. I've often disagreed on design/architecture but was forced to go through with it because I really didn't feel like arguing and getting on the shitlist of a high-ranking engineer with influence in the company.

If you want an idea of how I would design something, it's probably best to have me write something specific to the job. I'm not talking a whiteboard red-black tree implementation, but something that is actually indicative of the work I'll be doing.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#234

Post by hcho » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 4:56 PM UTC

Clubber wrote: post #113

readams wrote: post #3

It's hard to get a job because there are a lot of charlatans out there and it's often very hard to get rid of them once hired. Even worse is hiring someone merely mediocre and not actively harmful. That said of course the modern coding interview is I think only very loosely correlated with quality.

>it's often very hard to get rid of them once hired Every state in the US is an "at will" state, meaning a company can fire you with no reason as long as it isn't discriminatory towards a protected demographic. https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/at-will-emp...

I wouldn't be surprised if most of those states have laws for unfair dismissal as well. Companies develop an internal process to cover their backs for such eventualities. Running that process to the end is the costly bit.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#235

Post by HeyLaughingBoy » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 4:56 PM UTC

Nbox9 wrote: post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

This really is the problem. And I think it leads to a lot of the dysfunctional interview behavior that we've all seen. Interviewers are having to make up their own evaluation methods but really haven't thought through what the acceptance/rejection criteria should be.

I mean, we have things like the SWEBOK (https://www.computer.org/education/bodies-of-knowledge/softw...) that could be used to build a set of interview questions and acceptable responses, but does anyone use it for that?

The best interviews I've had, either as the interviewer or the candidate, have been when there was a discussion and a free flow of information in both directions. Unfortunately, it seems that in a lot of places, this degrades quickly into a hazing ritual.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#236

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 4:57 PM UTC

agd wrote: post #44

I want to challenge the premise of this article. Is there evidence that's it's hard for devs to get a job in general? E.g. The average hiring times for software devs (on popular platforms) in London was on the order of a couple of weeks. I know from personal experience that junior devs from bootcamps were getting snapped up quickly - source, I worked for 3 years in the recruitment industry and also hired many devs in…

[deleted]

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#237

Post by WalterBright » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 4:57 PM UTC

rsweeney21 wrote: post #169

It's because in software engineering your work product is confidential/proprietary and work samples take a very long time to produce. If you could review someone's code from their previous jobs, I think it would be quite easy to vet applicants. And it would be much easier to move from job to job. Instead we have to simulate work samples through whiteboard coding, pair programming sessions, take home coding projects,…

That's one advantage to working on open source. Your work is all just a click away.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#238

Post by herbturbo » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 4:58 PM UTC

bschwindHN wrote: post #131

jelling wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did an interview with Reddit - whom I hope sees this comment - and they not only provided zero information about the context of the tech interview in advance, or whether it would be one, but also the interview itself was like playing a random version of tech Jeopardy, but without the category columns, and very few of the questions had anything to do with the job I would be doing. I have over 20 years of programming…

They're too busy writing self congratulatory blog posts on their hiring process to have time to improve it. https://alexgolec.dev/reddit-interview-problems-the-game-of-...

It's a good signal for me when I'm presented with silly brain teasers like this in interviews, especially when the technology of the company isn't that great.

I'm interviewing you too, so give me something that reflects the problems you solve as a team, otherwise my assumption is your office is full of white boards containing puzzles of the day and your tech is all 3rd party libs.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#239

Post by mistrial9 » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 4:59 PM UTC

odiroot wrote: post #138

Getting any software engineering is probably as easy as 1-2-3. It's getting a promising job, in which you can grow, what's hard. And yes the recruitment process can be very tedious, illogical and sometimes even unfair. On the other hand, there are leagues of junior engineers (or just self-taught people after bootcamps) applying for all these jobs, so the process is hard for both sides.

you ignore the methodical, persistent, pre-meditated and enthusiastic efforts of business development people to marginalize, reduce wages and commoditize human workers !

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#240

Post by sixstringtheory » Mon, Aug 30, 2021, 4:59 PM UTC

Every time I think about this topic it reminds me of The Grapes of Wrath. Flyers everywhere talking about how much the orchards need fruit pickers, creating a veritable gold rush of workers. The outsized demand for jobs from the supply side of labor drives down wages and working conditions.