I’d argue that the ‘demand’ is overstated, largely because job listings and forecasts != actual jobs.
If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?
261–270 of 586 posts
Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?
#262Earlier quoted context omitted.
It’s a similar thing to incels. Many companies and bosses are kind of like incels. You’re a regular guy that’s probably not that interesting, rich, smart, or attractive, but you believe you deserve a chance with any girl. Get over yourselves.
Using the term 'incel' has become just as cringeworthy as the word itself is depicted by the person who's explaining or calling someone it. For what it's worth, it should just be dropped completely from one's vocabulary for purposes of maturity alone.
Any word that encapsulates an entire concept is worth keeping around.
Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?
#263Earlier quoted context omitted.
> And like that kind of job and want to do it for decades and decades on end for you; people who don't reload LinkedIn looking for 'new challenges with the latest framework' 20x a day. Interesting, I associate 'latest framework' more with trying to keep the monotonous job interesting (or perhaps misguided attempt at keeping sharp) than with 'new challenges '...
Part of it, is it seems that once you are in web dev, its hard to leave. So you try to make it interesting as best as you can, with "latest frameworks". I personally find all of of web dev to be monotonous
Once you are a {something} dev, it is hard to leave.
That {something} can be web, embedded, ML, etc... it doesn't matter.
The problem is twofold.
First, your skills in {something} are appreciating more than the other skills. If you're a web dev trying to transition to embedded, the skills as a web dev will let you get a more senior spot than going back to a lower experience embedded.
As a $150k/y web dev, would you rather go to $175k/y sr web dev or $125k/y embedded?
It's not that its hard - just that the skills that you've invested time into don't have value and you're going to need to go back to being "just" a competent programmer who needs to learn the domain for anything you switch to.
Secondly, there's the "why are you switching" problem.
If you are switching from web to embedded, the question will come up "why are you switching to a different domain." When that question gets asked, many candidates exhibit a more whimsical or capricious nature of just wanting to do something different. At which point the interviewer is looking at "competent, but likely to leave in a year or two because they got bored" vs "less experienced, but interested in the domain." The second candidate is probably a better choice.
The way to solve that is the personal project and demonstrate that you're interested in the domain at more than a "I'm bored with what I currently do."
Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?
#264It's hard to get a job because there are a lot of charlatans out there and it's often very hard to get rid of them once hired. Even worse is hiring someone merely mediocre and not actively harmful. That said of course the modern coding interview is I think only very loosely correlated with quality.
>it's often very hard to get rid of them once hired Every state in the US is an "at will" state, meaning a company can fire you with no reason as long as it isn't discriminatory towards a protected demographic. https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/at-will-emp...
Those who want someone removed are usually not the people empowered to remove someone.
Even complaining to their manager (which is often a bad move) usually wont result in the removal of that person
Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?
#265Earlier quoted context omitted.
In a cut-throat environment, where 10% of people are PIP'ed, it is expected: your senior colleagues are not going to help you, will lead you down a wrong path, etc. That way, the tribal knowledge will be with them, and they can outshine any new employee. In your interview case, they should have given you hints, even if they want to not hire you later.
That’s not how 10% attrition works at any notable company.
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Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?
#266Earlier quoted context omitted.
No. As a software engineer for 20+ years, I've talked with my sister, who is an ER doctor about this often. Most folks outside of engineering think our interview processes are crazy. Keep in mind, there's significantly more training that goes into the medical field, so there's more emphasis on the institutions. Where did you go to school? What hospitals or facilities did you work with? Your resume and references spea…
One key difference is licensing. As a physician you have to take the USMLE Step 1,2,3 and then potentially other board certifications. We engineers don't have any of that.
I imagine that amazon would still grill you in an interview even if you have one of their advance AWS certificates. I know those certificates are not the same, but I don't think it's about certifications.
Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?
#267Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is basically the advice I give everyone I know when it comes to things like this, "If you're going through the front door, you've already lost." My experience has been that this applies to recruiting, hiring, BD, sales, fundraising, etc. Anywhere that there's a systemic principal-agent problem.
> If you're going through the front door, you've already lost. I've heard that advice in various forms but I must say (anecdote incoming) - in my own 30 year career, the best jobs I've ever had were the random ones that I just applied for and the worst ones were the ones that somebody I knew from before recruited me in from outside.
hmm, I guess I can say a reasonably good one and the worst one ever that almost made me quit programming came about this way. The same guy recruited me in both places.
Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?
#268Earlier quoted context omitted.
I had a similar interview with a different company last year. Three guys and me on a Zoom call with me sharing my screen trying to solve a coding problem that in no way resembled anything I have ever encountered in my 25 year career. When I got stuck they just stared at me. They would not give me any hints whatsoever. They just stared at me. When the interview was over I thought, "Is this how working with these guys…
Never understood this way of interviewing. I get shit now and then for helping people too much in coding exercises, but if someone has reached the point where they are obviously not going to progress why not nudge them along and see how they respond? I've found that the ability to receive and act on guidance with a certain degree of humility is a much better signal of someone's potential than how many algorithms they…
Interviewing is hard.
It takes a lot of practice to know what level of assistance to provide at what time. A coworker once showed me a technique of keeping a google doc with the problems, as well as a step-by-step of the solution and the times at which they should be at that step. It always seemed to work out well for the candidates, as even a poor candidate would finish the problem at like 55 minutes into a 60 min interview.
Even with that, getting a person to see what they should be doing next, without telling them explicitly, is definitely a skill you develop with practice. I think you're right in erring on the side of too much assistance. You get to see much more of how the candidate works if you can skip over the part where they are getting stuck on something.
Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?
#269Earlier quoted context omitted.
Medical doctors have licenses which include exams and all sort of other barriers before they’re a ‘real’ independent doctor.
I'd be curious to hear peoples thoughts if they would subject themselves to this sort of professional board and licensing for software. There's clearly a pre-determined set of information and skills that are fundamental enough to be tested, but it is also fairly creative and subjective at the end of the day.
Realistically, I think I'd not be allowed to practice with that kind of system. I suspect there's an entire class of programmer (maybe this is the dev vs eng distinction the article refers to) which would be excluded by a system like this.
Fundamentally though I think that system of high priests and laypeople who are barely allowed to code at all can't be sustained. I strongly suspect all professions will eventually require a little programming, and certification will be hard for those cases.
Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?
#270Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'd be curious to hear peoples thoughts if they would subject themselves to this sort of professional board and licensing for software. There's clearly a pre-determined set of information and skills that are fundamental enough to be tested, but it is also fairly creative and subjective at the end of the day.
With medicine there are probably like 4 ways to treat a bullet wound. If you go too far outside of that you're probably not a good doctor. With software you can write a TODO app with a million lines of code or 7.
... Every serious trauma is unique and challenging in its own way.