Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

betterprogramming.pub

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 586 posts

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#61

Post by dgrin91 »

exdsq wrote: post #48
colordrops wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most software positions at SpaceX, even those working on critical flight code, do not require aerospace knowledge. And SpaceX is not a great example as they hire a lot of interns and junior people willing to grind.

I find this insane and terrifying.

This is pretty standard in all industries. Most people who work at a bank aren't financial experts. Most people who work at a hospital aren't medical experts.

Thats because most roles aren't the core of the business. Most are supporting the core. You don't need to be a flight engineer to build the system that tracks parts during manufacturing. You don't need to know how swaps work to build an order management system for traders. You don't need to know how to do surgery to build a scheduling system for the surgeons.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#62

Post by wayoutthere »

foxfluff wrote: post #8
readams wrote: post #3

It's hard to get a job because there are a lot of charlatans out there and it's often very hard to get rid of them once hired. Even worse is hiring someone merely mediocre and not actively harmful. That said of course the modern coding interview is I think only very loosely correlated with quality.

I get the feeling that mediocre business should be able to run just fine on mediocre people. So it can't be that bad. Of course, every business likes to pretend they're the top and can only hire top talent.

This is a talent strategy at some companies (mine included). Our business model simply doesn’t allow us to compete for the “top” engineers. Our best engineers have been people who are just general technologists dabbling in solo projects within the business side of a corporate or working as the lone IT person at a small business. They have enough of the fundamentals to hit the ground running and learn quickly, but not enough experience to attract the big offers.

Are they mediocre developers? Yeah, absolutely. But under the right guidance they can absolutely be valuable to a company, and our turnover tends to be low because we have a 9-5 culture. It’s less about being a mediocre company versus a company that can’t compete for talent on price, so our talent strategy is to keep it a nice place to work so people want to stay.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#63

Post by supergeek133 »

This would go along with some type of unionizing or organization.. but in the traditional trades (Electrician, Plumber, etc) there are education programs and apprenticeships before becoming "licensed".

Maybe that's what we need here, something to gap the "I'm brand spanking new" and "I'm a senior" time period.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#64

Post by cableshaft »

ghaff wrote: post #42
aNoob7000 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you hit it on the nose. Companies don't want to invest in training their new hires. They just want someone to hit the ground running with as little hand holding as possible.

It doesn't help that, for a certain slice of the software industry, staying in a position for 18-24 months has almost been normed. If it's unlikely that your hire is going to be there for more than a couple of years, why on earth would you "invest" in them. It's not like you'll get a return on that investment.

And why would software engineers stay if you did invest in their training but in the meantime you're going to reduce or eliminate bonuses, make your health plan worse (or just plain switch to high-deductible with no PPO options), stop 401k matching, other key employees have left and you don't hire new people and instead dump that responsibility on someone else without promotion or raises, etc.

I've seen all of those things happen at a single company before (and relatively quickly, over two years), and several of those things happen at several companies.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#65

Post by supergeek133 »

throwaway1492 wrote: post #5

A recent comment from reddit: This year I became a co-owner of the company that worked at for the past three years. It's a small development and consulting company and we're currently struggling to find new developers. At the same time, my girlfriend is trying to get her foot into this field. Since she's interested in a completely different tech stack than what we use, hiring her through good ol' nepotism is not goin…

The trades have apprenticeship programs... might be an interesting model to try to replicate.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#66

Post by Humdeee »

runawaybottle wrote: post #29
foxfluff wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the feeling that mediocre business should be able to run just fine on mediocre people. So it can't be that bad. Of course, every business likes to pretend they're the top and can only hire top talent.

It’s a similar thing to incels. Many companies and bosses are kind of like incels. You’re a regular guy that’s probably not that interesting, rich, smart, or attractive, but you believe you deserve a chance with any girl. Get over yourselves.

Using the term 'incel' has become just as cringeworthy as the word itself is depicted by the person who's explaining or calling someone it. For what it's worth, it should just be dropped completely from one's vocabulary for purposes of maturity alone.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#67

Post by jelling »

Nbox9 wrote: post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

I did an interview with Reddit - whom I hope sees this comment - and they not only provided zero information about the context of the tech interview in advance, or whether it would be one, but also the interview itself was like playing a random version of tech Jeopardy, but without the category columns, and very few of the questions had anything to do with the job I would be doing.

I have over 20 years of programming experience, am a founder, and have worked for multiple venture backed startups. That includes hiring countless developers, so I get both sides of the situation. And my partner is also a tech recruiter for a top tier HFT / market maker, so I know what a demanding but respectful hiring process looks like.

Reddit’s hiring process converted me from a fan of the site into someone that thought the entire organization was second tier - which obviously it is in terms of monetization - but also in how they treat people compared to the FAANGs. And a year later the role is still open.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#68

Post by ghaff »

nkingsy wrote: post #52
throwaway1492 wrote: post #5

A recent comment from reddit: This year I became a co-owner of the company that worked at for the past three years. It's a small development and consulting company and we're currently struggling to find new developers. At the same time, my girlfriend is trying to get her foot into this field. Since she's interested in a completely different tech stack than what we use, hiring her through good ol' nepotism is not goin…

I actually agree with the practice, and generally don’t think you should be employed to learn the basic tools of the trade. First there’s a code fluency wall you have to get over. Then there’s a tech debt/spaghetti lesson that needs to be learned (IMO this can only be learned the hard way) I did this with 6 months working on my own stuff 12 hours/day, then 6 months working for nothing but equity in a never gonna happ…

>I actually agree with the practice, and generally don’t think you should be employed to learn the basic tools of the trade.

In what other technical field are you expected, post-school (which probably hasn't taught you a ton of practical skills), to spend a year on your own making yourself employable?

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#69

Post by shagie »

commandlinefan wrote: post #37
Nbox9 wrote: post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

That all makes sense, and it bothers me, too, but they do hire somebody eventually, which implies that somebody can produce quality results in 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment they're unfamiliar with and people they just met.

Note: This depends on hiring style. Some companies have a bar and everyone who meets that bar is hired. Other companies are hiring for a position that gets one person...

These results may be "curved".

If you give the same easy test with no pressure and everyone is sufficiently good, then it was a waste of everyone's time.

In such an approach, you do something that is sufficiently hard that you're able to identify the people who are the better performing ones along with a reasonable idea of how well they work under pressure (because that will happen at some point).

Is it testing the right thing? Probably not. However, we still haven't found "the right thing" that is able to scale, respectful of the time of the candidate, not too intensive on the interviewer, and minimizes biases in hiring (same set of questions to all candidates, same grading scale).

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#70

Post by djtriptych »

southphillyman wrote: post #34

Only entry level software jobs(because of the weird x years requirements) and FAANG jobs (because of the required DS&A prep) are hard to get. Standard run of the mill Fortune 500 SWE jobs paying 100-200k are relatively easy to get once you have any experience at all.

bruh done grown up since #thatsite lol.
Post reply on HN