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If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

betterprogramming.pub

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Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#131
post #67
post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

I did an interview with Reddit - whom I hope sees this comment - and they not only provided zero information about the context of the tech interview in advance, or whether it would be one, but also the interview itself was like playing a random version of tech Jeopardy, but without the category columns, and very few of the questions had anything to do with the job I would be doing. I have over 20 years of programming…

They're too busy writing self congratulatory blog posts on their hiring process to have time to improve it.

https://alexgolec.dev/reddit-interview-problems-the-game-of-...

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#132
post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

That all makes sense, and it bothers me, too, but they do hire somebody eventually, which implies that somebody can produce quality results in 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment they're unfamiliar with and people they just met.

Or their standards drop enough to hire someone

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#133
post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

This is a great point. In many other fields (medicine, law) people study a standardized body of knowledge, take a standard test and then get a license so they can do something others cannot. However, this doesn't prevent a lot of awful and a lot of great people getting through. You would still need to interview a lot of them. I wonder if it sets a minimal level.

For the top law firms, things are pretty straightforward. You have to pass the bar, there's the school you went to, your class rank at the school, internships and clerkships, and then associates are largely up or out.

I assume it actually works pretty well but there's obviously a huge amount of gatekeeping involved.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#134
post #67
post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

I did an interview with Reddit - whom I hope sees this comment - and they not only provided zero information about the context of the tech interview in advance, or whether it would be one, but also the interview itself was like playing a random version of tech Jeopardy, but without the category columns, and very few of the questions had anything to do with the job I would be doing. I have over 20 years of programming…

I interviewed for a director of engineering role there — met the CTO, very informal ahead of the actual interview loop. Recruiter said they would follow up. Crickets. I followed up. Silence.

It was quite weird.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#135
post #105
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did an interview with Reddit - whom I hope sees this comment - and they not only provided zero information about the context of the tech interview in advance, or whether it would be one, but also the interview itself was like playing a random version of tech Jeopardy, but without the category columns, and very few of the questions had anything to do with the job I would be doing. I have over 20 years of programming…

I had a similar interview with a different company last year. Three guys and me on a Zoom call with me sharing my screen trying to solve a coding problem that in no way resembled anything I have ever encountered in my 25 year career. When I got stuck they just stared at me. They would not give me any hints whatsoever. They just stared at me. When the interview was over I thought, "Is this how working with these guys…

In a cut-throat environment, where 10% of people are PIP'ed, it is expected: your senior colleagues are not going to help you, will lead you down a wrong path, etc. That way, the tribal knowledge will be with them, and they can outshine any new employee.

In your interview case, they should have given you hints, even if they want to not hire you later.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

seems like a chicken and egg problem how are senior engineers supposed to be created if very few companies are willing to train junior engineers? Why aren't these companies offering paid apprenticeships if they are so desperate for workers?

In part because you have to jave enough sr people able to mentor. There's not a great industry framework. As a plumber, you pay your apprentice usually 60% sr/journyman salary with a 5% increase every 6 months to match the value of the skill up. There are also industry standard, industry funded classroom settings, that teach things like building codes and industry standards and some adjacent trade craft. Instead you…

one difference though is that varying levels of skill can be staggeringly different for SWE compared to a plumber. There are people that have been coding in basic since 12 and hacking their entire childhoods, and you have some people that coded for the first time in a cs program which they completed in an average fashion.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not hard, you say? Give us some pointers then? I'd appreciate a legacy code janitor job for a few years while still collecting $10k a month. I need the break from stress.

You have to move there. Even if you put it up front in your resume (they usually only read it 30 mins before they interview you). None of these companies want to hire from another state. As you can not 'start tomorrow'. Even though they will have these positions open for a year or more. Be up front you about what you are doing. They are going to think 'he is going to jump at any time'. Be willing to stay there awhile…

> You will burn bridges and the community of devs is small there, and they talk.

You've hit the nail on the head here and this is my main worry. I've been much more selfish lately (last 3-ish years) and I know I definitely did burn some bridges but I can't make myself care very much -- I am 41 y/o and at one point participating in a one-sided "exchange" of trying to appease while mostly humiliating yourself becomes impossible to swallow (but then again, I recognize I've had both shitty luck and self-selected bad employers due to personal drawbacks that I am still actively fighting with).

> Be willing to dig into some seriously legacy code. "oh we still use sourcesafe and vb5".

One of my strongest selling points as a senior dev is that (a) I don't mind dirty and heavy work at all, and (b) I have an excellent eye for detail, very rarely miss something and (c) I try to leave the code with better readability after I finish my current task on it.

That being said, many companies are too impatient. I've hit the brick wall of "we want somebody who can hit the ground running and we won't provide any training" personally at least 5 times in the last 3 years. And I seriously don't know what to do about that; I certainly can't know all tech stacks and domain expertises on the planet!

And it's flabbergasting how much in denial many companies are about the risk management aspect. I mean they know; they absolutely know what's going on but they concluded that training new hires is a huge business risk (due to most people never staying more than 2 years on a job) so people like myself -- even if senior and very experienced -- have literally 1% chance of getting hired in many such places.

They do have a point and they are mostly acting rationally in this situation; but they could still spare some minimal training so they stand to gain a bit more from the employee that's going to move on maximum 24 months after being hired. One or two months of training isn't that expensive for them I'd think.

> These guys can be cheap. They have a product someone tinkered together years ago. But they do not have enough income to really justify any sort of real work. So they do what they can and usually just farm it out to some consultant group.

I am realistic about that aspect and I accept it. If they wanted to pay top dollar they'd just court somebody who is 45-50 or more for several months and then do their very best to promise them retirement in the company and all the good stuff that a long stay can benefit the person.

I know they want to pay less but I'd aim for having 3-4 such customers, independently, and collect a 120% - 200% of my normal payment combined through such venues. Not always sustainable in terms of mental strain and energy but I've pulled it off successfully even as shortly as 9-10 months ago without being hugely taxed in terms of health.

RE: the consultant group trope, I suppose this is where I fail in terms of marketing. Many companies just can't take a single random person seriously even if he's John Carmack in disguise. I suspect I need to make a fancy consulting website with some fake testimonials and pretty graphics, have a photo in a rented suit and then I'll suddenly be taken seriously. People can be very shallow and easy to manipulate, huh?

I am a bit flippant here but I likely should indeed work on marketing. But how does one strong and senior single programmer advertise themselves as a consultant or, generally, a guy you go to to solve a business problem, and who is not a wage lemming? Got any pointers on that?

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#138
Getting any software engineering is probably as easy as 1-2-3. It's getting a promising job, in which you can grow, what's hard.

And yes the recruitment process can be very tedious, illogical and sometimes even unfair.

On the other hand, there are leagues of junior engineers (or just self-taught people after bootcamps) applying for all these jobs, so the process is hard for both sides.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

seems like a chicken and egg problem how are senior engineers supposed to be created if very few companies are willing to train junior engineers? Why aren't these companies offering paid apprenticeships if they are so desperate for workers?

In part because you have to jave enough sr people able to mentor. There's not a great industry framework. As a plumber, you pay your apprentice usually 60% sr/journyman salary with a 5% increase every 6 months to match the value of the skill up. There are also industry standard, industry funded classroom settings, that teach things like building codes and industry standards and some adjacent trade craft. Instead you…

> In truth, it wastes the talent you've built to not be aggressively increasing their comp to match the skill increase you're providing.

The issue is that we don't quantify what hiring someone actually costs. We're willing to spend $20k on finding a candidate for 160k yet the people in the same position are sitting at 120k and getting a 3-4% raise.

The new person needs time so expect at least a month of training, yet no one quantifies that as well.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#140
post #7
post #2

everyone wants to underpay the talent and there's only limited amount of talent the price floor for really talented engineers is also high so high in the sense most startups can't afford those 300-400k salaries.

Outside of FAANG, who is paying $300k+ for a standard / non-management dev job?

Do you consider Senior SWE and above IC roles "standard"? If so lots of companies. Think Salesforce, Adobe, etc.
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