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Show HN: We built an end-to-end encrypted alternative to Google Photos

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Re: Show HN: We built an end-to-end encrypted alternative to Google Photos

#191
post #112

Your homepage says "protect your photos/faces etc. from algorithms" The algorithms are what makes Google Photos; Google Photos. If I wanted to just store my photos I'd throw them in a S3 bucket or Dropbox or something. Google Photos lets me automatically categorise my photos by person, lets me search my library using text search for anything (e.g. I can search 'museum' and see pictures I've taken in museums). That is…

To think that someone can just throw their photos in s3 assumes people are ops, devils, or devs. That’s a small slice of the population. What about everyone else?

You're right, a few hours of work on top of S3 are needed to obviate Google Photos.

Re: Show HN: We built an end-to-end encrypted alternative to Google Photos

#193

Awesome work. Although the price is 5x of google’s, the privacy is worth it. Is there a family plan? We currently have 200gb google photos plan with my wife, but to migrate we have to take 1000gb plan (which we fill maybe in 8 years at current pace of adding content). Maybe something in between 100gb and 1000gb would find it’s audience.

Yes, we have both a 100GB and a 1000GB plans, you can check them on https://ente.io/#pricing

Exactly my point. I’m getting close to 200gb, but it’s gonna be a while I reach 1000gb. So essentially i’ll be paying for the space I don’t use for years.

Re: Show HN: We built an end-to-end encrypted alternative to Google Photos

#194
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The software with these features is called Synology Moments. I use it and I mostly love it, at the very least as a backup for my Google Photos. My experience is that it works great, provided that you're on your local network. When away from home or traveling, less so. Maybe I could configure things better to alleviate that, I don't know, but I haven't managed to yet. Sharing is less convenient. Trying to share a phot…

For at-home NAS, is Synology the best for recreating Google services?

I've had Synology for years and I have used their Photos and Momemts app.

It's pretty dang hard to recreate a Google service.It's great for backup and have control over the photos - but dang it's slow....if I need something real quick, I usually go to google photos...even when I'm home. Maybe I need to upgrade to a NAS w/ faster processor, I don't know.

I've turned off the Google Photos facial recognition stuff because of privacy, but dang I miss the convenience. Moments has their own but it's not a good.

Google photos I can easily search for a city or text or an object and it pops up quickly.

Re: Show HN: We built an end-to-end encrypted alternative to Google Photos

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am I the only one who never realized you can search "museum" and see your museum photos? Now that you've mentioned it, yes, I'd like to try that. But as a counterpoint to your argument, I've never needed it, and I suspect that a lot of people may not actually be getting the same value propositions that you're getting. On the other hand, Google Photos is Google Photos. But it's often a mistake to compete directly with…

I use it all the time - it's the killer feature of google photos. The premise is that if you come back from vacation with 300 photos, it's unlikely that you (the average non photography-nerd user) are going to sit there and tag them all. If in a few years you want to find "that photo of me you took on the beach in north carolina", with a quick search you can. There are annoying limitations though, probably because th…

Yeah, it's a killer feature, but I really wish they had some sort of a documented "search API".

Instead of natural language search, where I have no idea whether it understood me, I wish I could do (modifying your example):

"North Carolina" "Maggie Thomson" "Tom Morgan" -beach 2018

for all photos in NC, with Maggie and Tom, not in a beach from 2018

and even better, if it could tell me the number of results that would show up if we removed each keyword above.

I guess it's a tough problem, even for Google :(

Re: Show HN: We built an end-to-end encrypted alternative to Google Photos

#196

Congratulations, this looks neat. A couple questions around this venture: 1. Does ente.io intend to remain bootstrapped or seek funding (tiny-vc, crowd, crypto, public)? 2. Is the founding team in it for long term; serious about sustaining this business in face of capable incumbents (some upcoming ones https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27338008 , some established ones like nextcloud.com, getkeepsafe.com) and compe…

Venture:

1. We did apply to YC a few months ago, but was rejected in the interviews because they felt that the total addressable market was low. We don't know if other VCs will feel differently and we haven't applied anywhere else since. Perhaps paid subscriptions is in a way public funding? :)

2. The rate at which photos are being taken (a trillion a year), we believe that the market is large enough for multiple players. Also none of the existing solutions provide a user experience that we are happy with, so we would like to keep building until we have something that works for us (at least). Also it helps that we are not very motivated by money. As long as we get to build useful things while being able to sustain our lifestyles, we will be content.

--

App:

1. We have been advised by our lawyers to provide no such guarantees. All I can say is that we follow the best engineering practices to make sure that possibility of a data loss/corruption is minimal. And in the unfortunate case that it does happen, we have strategies in place to minimize the damage by applying rollbacks and triggering re-syncs from clients. We will be transparent about any such event.

2. Our infrastructure is agnostic to the data type. Once we have reasonably polished the photos product, we would like to venture into other spaces where E2EE storage + sync is useful.

3. We use BackBlaze as our hot-storage and Scaleway as our cold storage.

4. All files are versioned. File names are not a primary key.

5. Due to the nature of our encryption protocols, we cannot actively look out for illegal content, but we will take down content that violates our ToS[1] when it is brought to our attention.

---

Cryptography

1. The key recovery flow was hand rolled and peer reviewed, since we could not find existing implementations that solved for our use cases. We wanted the recoveryKey to be something that can be shared and rotated if necessary. We have reasoned from first principles and have relied on libsodium for executing the actual cryptographic operations. If you have specific concerns with this, please write to security@ente.io, we would love to engage in a conversation.

Wrapped keys are sent to clients only after verifying a user's email address and 2FA (if configured). This is similar to what most other encrypted storage providers do.

2. The extra layer of authentication was added to serve as an implicit second factor. This ensures that even if your email is compromised, an attacker cannot gain access to an auth-token and trigger API calls that could corrupt your data. Both your email and password have to be compromised for them to authenticate against our servers.

3. If by your password being compromised you mean that all of your encryption keys have been compromised, you will have to re-encrypt and re-upload all of your data. It is difficult to rotate a file key without actually re-encrypting the file.

4. These are seasoned engineers who understand and have used high level crypto libraries to build secure infrastructure at a few unicorns.

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ToS:

1. We keep it around just to help users recover their data in case they were attacked.

2. I believe that we should be able to offer a takeout for the data that was not in violation of our ToS, but I would like to speak to our lawyers before confirming this. :)

Re: Show HN: We built an end-to-end encrypted alternative to Google Photos

#197
post #184

you have a warning during sign up that says “you will lose everything if you forget your password”. naturally this is off-putting to most normal people. any plans to implement a social-recovery system like we see in the ethereum world? if i can share photos with friends, i should be able to use those friends to recover my account too.

Sorry for the off-putting text. We do offer a recoveryKey that can be shared with your friends and rotated if necessary. As long as you have access to either your password or your recoveryKey, you will be able to decrypt your data.

Re: Show HN: We built an end-to-end encrypted alternative to Google Photos

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has worked on systems like these let me translate: “You stuff will be private but in return accuracy will be so bad that the UX is gonna suck!” That’s the key piece people miss when they wanna do anything with ML…that’s it’s a different problem compared to writing code because it’s not about the code anymore, it’s about having great training data!

Apple Photos seems to be using just Core ML[1] for on-device recognition and it does a pretty good job. As for Android, we plan to use tflite, but the accuracy is yet to be measured. And if customers do install our desktop app, we will be able to improve the indexes by re-indexing data with the extra bit of compute available. We don't feel that the entire UX of a photo storage app will "suck" because of a reduced acc…

Core ML and TFlite are just tools for running ML models. Generating the models is the hard part, and that is what encryption will make more difficult.

Re: Show HN: We built an end-to-end encrypted alternative to Google Photos

#199

From what I have seen, I like Photoprism [1] better. Yes, they are a different kind of product, but feature wise they should be considered a competitor. Yes, ente.io is easier to setup, but there are many things lacking or unpolished (e.g. the image sizes that are being loaded while going through the fotos fullscreen in the browser). [1] https://photoprism.app

That service doesn't look like it's encrypted and not really equal then.

So far, there isn't even a service. It is only software, which you can use to self-host your pictures, which can serve the same purpose. Both are certainly GP alternatives.

Equal: no. Comparable: sure.

Re: Show HN: We built an end-to-end encrypted alternative to Google Photos

#200

Your homepage says "protect your photos/faces etc. from algorithms" The algorithms are what makes Google Photos; Google Photos. If I wanted to just store my photos I'd throw them in a S3 bucket or Dropbox or something. Google Photos lets me automatically categorise my photos by person, lets me search my library using text search for anything (e.g. I can search 'museum' and see pictures I've taken in museums). That is…

For me the features that make Google photo, Google photo are:

* it's free and comes by default with an Android phone.

* it just works.

If you can make an effortless way to get online backups of my photos at a reasonable price while regaining privacy, then I'll switch in a heartbeat without a single thought about any of those ML-based moat features Google has crammed in their service.

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