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Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

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421–430 of 441 posts

Re: Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

#421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why assume that the ultra wealthy should care about the lesser citizens? What about all the rampant looting in NYC? I don't think they cared then. Maybe many of them just aren't pro American. In almost every other country the media/politics carefully try to project some national pride and sense of unity; it's actually the opposite here in the US isn't it?

Actually the US is not exceptional in that regard. Media and politicians sometimes use patriotic and popular sentiment (usually empty gestures like sport) to boost their popularity, but around the world in most western countries the tone is increasingly that they should be ashamed of themselves, of their original (secular) sin, and by no means should they take any pride or celebration in their society or its achievem…

That's a disputed take.

Here in France we only just now had a president recognizing our role in the Rwanda genocide, which happened 20 years ago.

Overall I'm seeing a lot more people calling for being proud of our nation and moving past inconvenient historical details than self-flagellation.

Macron is an exception in how much he stands for the "duty to memory" thing. Most people are fine believing their country can do nothing wrong.

Re: Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

#423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually the US is not exceptional in that regard. Media and politicians sometimes use patriotic and popular sentiment (usually empty gestures like sport) to boost their popularity, but around the world in most western countries the tone is increasingly that they should be ashamed of themselves, of their original (secular) sin, and by no means should they take any pride or celebration in their society or its achievem…

I guess the problem is, if you're interested in history, you often do find there's lots to be proud of in a nation's past, but it's usually the precise opposite of the people you can find statues of. So when you're proud of your nations past, what past? I think there's a lot of admirable stuff in british history, for example, but the streets and statues generally memorialize a bunch of really shitty people.

I guess that's not the problem. If you're interested in history there is lots of good and amazing achievements.

If you do or are supposed to feel some guilt or sorrow or shame for the bad, then you could feel some pride or happiness or thankfulness for the good.

Re: Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

#424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually the US is not exceptional in that regard. Media and politicians sometimes use patriotic and popular sentiment (usually empty gestures like sport) to boost their popularity, but around the world in most western countries the tone is increasingly that they should be ashamed of themselves, of their original (secular) sin, and by no means should they take any pride or celebration in their society or its achievem…

That's a disputed take. Here in France we only just now had a president recognizing our role in the Rwanda genocide, which happened 20 years ago. Overall I'm seeing a lot more people calling for being proud of our nation and moving past inconvenient historical details than self-flagellation. Macron is an exception in how much he stands for the "duty to memory" thing. Most people are fine believing their country can d…

That's not what I was talking about. Of course governments are not going to easily admit their own crimes and incompetence and failures -- the same as in the US they don't admit their failures in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria etc for example.

But they absolutely do love to push the moral and economic burden for such things on to the common person.

And of course people are proud of their country and history and societies because that's normal healthy part of the human condition. This behavior and thought is increasingly shamed and bullied though.

Re: Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

#425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word you're looking for is progressivism, not liberalism. American liberalism is just progressivism wearing liberalism as a skinsuit.

Fair enough. I’m a liberal if by that you mean “ACA is a good idea.” “Let’s have massive tent camps of homeless people” is where you lose me.

Many social problems in west coast cities are self-inflicted but there's also the 9th circuit's Martin v. Boise decision (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_v._Boise); it prevents criminalizing public camping unless there's shelter space for everyone. This is effectively impossible given the number of homeless people so we're stuck with the encampments.

Re: Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

#426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately that viewpoint is fairly common among contemporary West Coast liberals. A shocking amount of anti-social behavior is tolerated for this reason.

(This got long, I'm not directing this at you or trying to needle you. I hope this will help you or someone else understand what some of the homeless are facing) I think we see someone peeing on a car as less of an anti-social behavior than puritanical approaches to solving anti-social behavior that are more about punishment than rehabilitation. We are more upset that society wants to pay 70-100k a year to imprison p…

Thanks for sharing your perspective, I found it to be enlightening and perspective widening. One of my close family members is very much like yourself, having been hospitalized many times with periods of independence in between. He was able to get on disability early in life thanks to some foresight by our parents, so luckily he’s never had to go through that awful waiting process, but otherwise a lot of your story is his story too. I am currently and have been for a while the person who supports him and tries to navigate with him through the impossible sea of bureaucracy to meet his most basic needs, and I share your frustration. Most of the institutions we do have in this country are absolutely byzantine to take advantage of and it’s only gotten worse thanks to COVID and the massive staff and doctor shortages at every healthcare facility that accepts patients on Medicare. It’s beyond maddening.

Regarding my original comment, for the most part I am not personally angry with those who are exhibiting the antisocial behavior, with the exception of the violent ones or those who make a habit of stealing from others to support a drug habit. Even the latter I can drum up some sympathy for, although it’s limited. That being said, I am angry that nothing is being done to separate the people who can’t or won’t behave decently in public from those who do. That isn’t fair to those who are willing and able to follow the basic principles and tenants of society. Children deserve to be able to play on a playground without having to worry about stepping on a used needle; something that they can’t currently do in some neighborhoods of the city I live in because the city government is too paralyzed with the fear of our activist community and lawsuits that they won’t evict the homeless camps that have set up shop there. That’s not okay. Neither is the open air chop shop that took over a local dog park. I could go on and on and on with examples like this, but I think my point is pretty clear.

I agree with you about the need to overhaul our safety net. To me it’s an imperative along the same order of importance as responding meaningfully to climate change. I found out recently that a shocking number of foster children become homeless after they turn 18. As I’m sure you know, that’s just one group that isn’t properly cared for under our current system. Sweeping and meaningful change is badly needed, and it’s needed right now.

And yet, outside the West Coast, this is barely a topic of discussion. It’s not on the agenda for either of the national political parties in any meaningful way. For that to happen, people need to get angry. But when people do get angry - say about a person peeing on their car - they often get shut down by well meaning, empathetic people. I see that as a problem. I feel that it’s entirely appropriate to be angry about the situation we find ourselves in, and to allow that anger to build, and to let the people in our government who are currently abdicating their duties to feel it, so they feel motivated to change.

Re: Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

#427
post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is kind of ironic, isn't it? These days Tucker Carlson talks about pardoning Assange, the deep state and that house prices in SF are too high for the middle class. Literally Noam Chomsky could be saying the same things. But people still believe that Republicans will take away your freedoms and Democrats will solve everything (I don't believe either will solve much).

The Republicans are actively eroding voting rights around the country (see Texas) and actually tried to annul the last election. Gee, I wonder why people believe that.

"Erode" compared to what? Texas's voting laws are still vastly more loosey goosey compared to voting in France. The Netherlands didn't even have mail in voting for the elderly last year. Most European countries have very limited early voting compared to even the "restrictive" new Texas rules.

Voting rules should instill confidence in elections among people who are low information and don't trust the other side. You can't build an election system on telling the other side "trust us" and "you can't prove bad things happened." And elections should be decided quickly and decisively, again to foster faith in the system. The NYC Democratic Primary was a shit show in this regard.

Look at how they do voting in Taiwain--we should do it that way too: https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3855762

Democrats tried to "annul" the 2004 and 2016 elections too. They had Congressional hearings over "voter fraud" in Ohio, based on the supposed mismatch between exit polls and the final results. (And that was with a 2 point margin for Bush, vastly bigger than the ones at issue in 2020.)

Re: Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

#430
post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is kind of ironic, isn't it? These days Tucker Carlson talks about pardoning Assange, the deep state and that house prices in SF are too high for the middle class. Literally Noam Chomsky could be saying the same things. But people still believe that Republicans will take away your freedoms and Democrats will solve everything (I don't believe either will solve much).

The Republicans are actively eroding voting rights around the country (see Texas) and actually tried to annul the last election. Gee, I wonder why people believe that.

America is the only first world democracy that doesn't require stringent identity verification to vote or acquire your ballot for mail-in, etc.
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