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Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

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351–360 of 441 posts

Re: Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much of a bubble do you have to be in to think someone peeing on cars is a non issue

Unfortunately that viewpoint is fairly common among contemporary West Coast liberals. A shocking amount of anti-social behavior is tolerated for this reason.

(This got long, I'm not directing this at you or trying to needle you. I hope this will help you or someone else understand what some of the homeless are facing)

I think we see someone peeing on a car as less of an anti-social behavior than puritanical approaches to solving anti-social behavior that are more about punishment than rehabilitation. We are more upset that society wants to pay 70-100k a year to imprison people who likely have neurochemistry or behavioral problems, than to spend a fraction of that on solving the root problems instead of treating symptoms.

I've been in psych wards and rehabs. I would say close to three quarters of people in both institutions were capable of living a somewhat normal life, if they could get meaningful and stable assistance in dealing with their issues. The rest at least deserved a comfortable, safe place to live the best they could under full supervision. If you do any reading about state mental institutions in the US, you will understand they receive the exact opposite.

After my last psychotic episode I was pretty sure I would never be able to work again, but I still wanted to be independent if possible, even if that meant living in public housing and scraping by. I had already maxed out my SS benefits because I was productive up until that point, despite having undiagnosed mental illness and addiction problems. Of course I didn't have any savings and was relying on family.

At this point I had over 100k in hospital bills, thankfully almost completely paid by health insurance before I lost my job. That included multiple hospital visits, trips to psych wards, and visits to rehab. My family had saved paperwork for all of it, and I had two different psychiatrists who agreed I may never be able to work again.

I was told point blank by every single person I talked to, from the non-profits (who were totally worthless), to the disability lawyers I called, to the disability processing agents that it would be at least two years before I had a chance at receiving a dime. So I stayed with family for many months, they paid for my mental health care, and eventually I got on the right meds and I can now work again. My economic privilege is probably the only reason I am not on the streets or dead.

As a society, our expectation is that someone with a mental illness is going to take on that bureaucracy while they are in the most difficult period of their illness in order to get better. And if they display anti-social behavior, what do we do? We imprison them. Some of my behavior during my psychotic episode was violent. I am lucky I was not beat or shot, by a stranger or by the police.

The whole point of my rambling is that I hope we can consider the history of the person that is displaying anti-social behaviors. Some of the smartest, kindest, and most ingenious hackers of every stripe I have ever met were in rehab and in psych wards, but only after they had been stabilized by meds or sobriety. Before they returned, they were different, sometimes scary people.

There is so much potential being wasted, and so much low hanging fruit to help them rehabilitate and give back to society. Even from a purely economical perspective, I think it makes sense to overhaul our safety net so it catches people as early as it can. It serves individual rights, makes efficient use of our collective wealth, and I think it's the right thing to do.

Re: Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't consider it humane to let someone live on the streets begging until they happen to die of a drug overdose. I don't care about their wishes, guided by drug addiction and mental health issues. To allow and enable this much squandering of human potential is a moral crime. Get people clean of drugs, healthy, stable, and educated. By force, if needed. If from that baseline he decides to go back into a life of drug…

This is, in all honesty, a terrifying point of view. Forcing people to take part in a society that has already rejected them and conform to someone else’s view of normal, healthy, stable, etc., that, to me, would be literal torture. I don’t consider it humane to torture people. How do you feel about all the busywork jobs that enable so so much more squandering of human potential? Should all those folks be forced to l…

Your logic can be extended indefinitely. Are we torturing pedophiles by forcing them not to abuse children? What about murderers?

Society coalesced for a reason.

Re: Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have different views about what is humane. I struggle to understand yours, but that's OK.

Yours involves forcing your world view on a vulnerable person against their will for your benefit. Theirs does not. Guess which is the moral one.

So righteousness falls upon the vulnerable?

I guess I'll tell my drug addicted cousin he's all good because he's vulnerable.

You can be moral by being against the will of someone who's lost their way.

Re: Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Low because they don't arrest anyone. But that isn't on the police - they don't arrest anyone because the DA doesn't prosecute anyone. Property crime is sky high... if you happen to get caught breaking into a car the penalty is a warning. That is the policy. You have to break into many cars and be caught (which is hard to do) many times for any action. Boudin has indefensibly ignored violent criminals, too. Like a wo…

>But that isn't on the police - they don't arrest anyone because the DA doesn't prosecute anyone. This always struck me as a BS excuse, because if you're trying to demonstrate that the DA is the problem, wouldn't you want to be making arrests and creating a paper trail to prove your point? Apathy by the police just makes them look bad to anyone who's on the receiving end of it. And getting arrested is still a deterre…

It’s also demonstrably false. You can look at clearance and prosecution stats from both the PD and DA and you’ll see little too no change from pre and post Chesa.

https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/stay-safe/crime-data/clea...

https://sfdistrictattorney.org/policy/da-stat/

Some court activity dropped in 2020, but filing rates are higher in 2021 already, highlighting the impact closed and reduced court capacity has had. Filings, even in 2020, though lower that 2021, were not out of the norm of the last decade. This year, rates are at 2018/2019 levels and close to a high for the decade.

Lots of people come out and like to point a finger at our new DA when the data just doesn’t support it. If there is a problem with prosecutors in SF, it’s existed before Chesa.

Re: Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But that isn't on the police - they don't arrest anyone because the DA doesn't prosecute anyone. This always struck me as a BS excuse, because if you're trying to demonstrate that the DA is the problem, wouldn't you want to be making arrests and creating a paper trail to prove your point? Apathy by the police just makes them look bad to anyone who's on the receiving end of it. And getting arrested is still a deterre…

I assume they would feel that sticking their neck out like that would put themselves at personal risk, either literally or figuratively.

In what way would doing there job put them at risk that they didn’t sign up for with the job itself?

You’re not going to convince me to pay you more if you do a shit job. Same issue as with the SF school district.

Re: Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

#356
post #191
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are incarceration rates low because people behave or are they low because SF police don’t bother to arrest people?

They may also be low because there are no state prisons in SF county, so people with longer terms may be counted in the jurisdiction where they're being held.

This guy stats.

Re: Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

#357

As someone who's family has been in the bay area for over a century I was disappointed the article didn't mention any of the old money families who've controlled SF politics for decades. This article[0] mentions some, though not all of the families (The Aliotos aren't mentioned here for example). While I haven't fully kept up, I know in the 90s at least a quarter of the financial district was held by two families. Th…

I think a story about an ultra wealthy ruling class that stands behind the public political class is not going to get published in mainstream outlets. I mean it will if it's about Russia or China or historical periods like "the Gilded Age", but I guess you don't see it talked about for modern day West.

Well, I think there are some good reasons for that. It's traditionally been an antisemetic trope, and often smoothly blends into antisemitism (Rothschilds, etc). It's also one of those things where the evidence is by necessity weak, and you really can't write weakly-evidenced critical articles about rich people without getting sued.

Personally, I'm very glad that this isn't a mainstream way of understanding problems. Rich people are kind of fungible, in that they usually don't want to pay taxes, but other than that usually have about the same range of politics as everybody else. Focusing on individual malfeasance tends to protect dysfunctional systems.

Re: Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

#358
post #23

"Nor are the police blameless. In the fourth quarter of last year, the “clearance” rate for robbery (which measures the share of reported crimes that result in an arrest) was half that of New York City. The police are notoriously unresponsive." This. Not only do I RARELY see a police officer in SF, but when I do, they look "beat down" or ambivalent. I'm sure years of police being the political "whipping boy" has take…

Because they know their arrests won't be prosecuted by the DA. So what's the point?

Re: Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

#359

I sat and chatted to a homeless fella hanging out at Fisherman’s Wharf in SF for a while. He wasn’t from CA, from Missouri IIRC. He was gay, his family disowned him, he got into drugs. He got bitter, did some nasty stuff to people he hated, did some other misguided things and basically had hit rock bottom. I asked him what he thought would be needed to bring him out of homelessness and keep him inside society. He sai…

> he was able to score enough cash from tourists to support his drugs habit, the police left him alone because he didn’t look out of place, he was clean, groomed etc.

> How does society help someone with that view?

What do you mean by "help"? What's the problem?

Re: Why San Francisco’s city government is so dysfunctional

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yours involves forcing your world view on a vulnerable person against their will for your benefit. Theirs does not. Guess which is the moral one.

So righteousness falls upon the vulnerable? I guess I'll tell my drug addicted cousin he's all good because he's vulnerable. You can be moral by being against the will of someone who's lost their way.

> You can be moral by being against the will of someone who's lost their way.

Who are you to decide what their ‘way’ is supposed to be to know they’re off it?

Some parents think their gay children have lost their way and force them into ‘treatment’.

I guess you think they’re wrong and shouldn’t be allowed to do that but you’re right and should be able to do what you want?

I don’t think there’s much different between the two and both are wrong.

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