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Arm China Has Gone Rogue

semianalysis.substack.com

201–210 of 686 posts

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#201
post #91

People need to wake up to the fact that China being a potential market of >1B people is an illusion. This is particularly relevant for any tech company. Let me spell it out: Chinese companies are extensions of the state. They are tools of Chinese foreign and trade policy. What cooperation you think US companies provide the US government, it is nothing in comparison. The Chinese government will ensure that no Western…

Naive question here: why China is able to close its market to foreign companies? Same thing for trade sanctions on Iran which impacted European companies but not China (if I'm not wrong). Seems they don't play by the same rules as anybody else.

> why China is able to close its market to foreign companies?

Because we assumed that prosperity would lead to liberal democracy. That underwrote complacency while profit motivations took root.

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#202
post #55
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest it has now become politically toxic for a western company to announce a large investment in China.

It's financially toxic for them not to invest in the Chinese market. Name a major American brand, and odds are you've named either someone who manufactures in China, sells to China, or more commonly, does both. When it comes to optics or money, boards and investors will choose money.

I think the parent was referring to making investments into Chinese businesses, not just manufacturing their products or selling there.

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

谋 is the simplified form of 謀, which kanjidic has meanings like "conspire, cheat, impose on, plan, devise, scheme, have in mind, deceive". One Japanese word for conspiracy is in 陰謀 (inbō): conspiracy (lit: hidden plan); 陰謀論 (inbōron) means "conspiracy theory". The "Peacefuly Scheming Technology" company.

It's Chinese, though, not Japanese, and the Japanese meanings borrowed in the Tang dynasty are no longer modern Chinese. (Common words like "to eat" is 食 in Japanese, but in Chinese now that means "foodstuff" and is a noun, not a verb. The common Chinese word for to eat is 吃. There are a lot of these.) 谋 appears to mean more like "plan" as a neutral word. Obviously you could have hidden plans and devious plans as wel…

> * 谋 appears to mean more like "plan" as a neutral word.*

So do a number of Japanese words like 知謀 (chibō): ingenuity, resourcefulness, or 深謀 (shinbō): eliberate; careful; thoughtful; deeply laid plan.

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#205
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make the implicit assumption that it is possible to maintain an advantage in the market after destroying ongoing business relationships/expectations (as ARM China appears to have done). I think you may be overestimating the importance of 'apparent market power', and underestimating the value of consistency and adaptability. Highly centralized (command & control) and mercantilist systems tend to do well in the sho…

> Highly centralized (command & control) and mercantilist systems tend to do well in the short term, but struggle and founder in the long term. That sounds like a prayer to me. What evidence is there that China can't win? How are you certain that authoritarian regimes can't both gain and keep dominance over timescale of decades or centuries? Consider that the dominance of democracy is a relatively short term thing on…

> What evidence is there that China can't win?

There's no evidence here. We're talking about predicting the future in a system that's too complex to make predictions with any certainty.

But for those of us following the politics and economics of China closely, it's pretty clear that they're screwed.

People said Japan would dominate the world. Then the demographic shift hit them and the economy has been stagnating ever since. China's demographic shift is much bigger and faster, they're further behind (per capita), and they're way less prepared. China has the same problem of not accepting enough immigrants, and they just made it worse by cracking down on after-school tutoring.

The vast majority of history is very different from the world we live in today. People can move between countries relatively easily, and all countries compete for the top talent. A huge share of workers these days are knowledge workers. You can't generalise based on history when the fundamentals are so vastly different. China has very little to offer there, and they're increasingly becoming hostile to foreigners.

They have an enormous housing bubble. Well, if you can call it a bubble when it's propped up so it never bursts. But much of their GDP is pure waste as they're building apartments nobody lives in, and that deteriorates within years. Why? Because they can't build a trustworthy stock market where people can invest, so people invest in housing. They just demonstrated once again that you should never but money in the Chinese stock market, so the problem isn't getting better.

Chinas infrastructure is weak. Many cities are built without proper drainage. Dams are breaking. The US may have a huge infrastructure debt, but at least it was solid to begin with.

China has an insane amount of public servants per worker. The whole economy is deeply inefficient, and has only been propped up by a crazy 996 work ethic, one that Xi is now trying to crack down on.

Which illustrates the fundamental instability: they can't continue to grow through capitalism anymore. The insane income inequality is becoming a big problem, and the wealthy was accumulating too much power, threatening the power of the party. So Xi is reverting to more traditional socialist policies, to remove some of the power of wealthy individuals and satisfy the public. But that will fundamentally weaken the economy. It'll push them in the direction of economies like North Korea and Venezuela.

China is being squeeze from both ends: low value manufacturing is moving to other countries as labor costs in China increases. But China has trouble establishing high value exports and services. How many trusted brands are there from China? Quite a few sure, but not compared to its population size.

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#206
post #91

People need to wake up to the fact that China being a potential market of >1B people is an illusion. This is particularly relevant for any tech company. Let me spell it out: Chinese companies are extensions of the state. They are tools of Chinese foreign and trade policy. What cooperation you think US companies provide the US government, it is nothing in comparison. The Chinese government will ensure that no Western…

It will come to a head with WWIII, millions dying from nuclear or biological warfare (which by the way Wuhan was the Hiroshima of biological warfare [whether it was intentional or not]). Or if we are lucky, they will just give in rather than face the next bioweapon.

Anyway, as you see I am not optimistic.

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#207

Diversity happened. Civic nationalism empirically doesn't work [1]. Societies need some level of individual sacrifice for the group to prosper over the long term, and diversity kills the impulse to do that. Favoring the ingroup over the outgroup is a stable state for groups, starting from ants and ending with humans. Trying to eradicate those impulses was perhaps noble, but ended in utter failure. Hapless attempts at…

Topic: China steals IP.

Top comment to top comment: diversity in the West is bad.

Geez, even given the topic (which is guaranteed to attract flamewar), this is bad. We aren't even pretending to stay on topic, are we.

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#208

The PRC isn’t fucking around. They’re playing for the whole show and the West is bringing a significantly weaker game than it did against a significantly dumber geopolitical adversary last time. Being England or whatever isn’t the end of the world, there is life after global hegemony, but e.g. the USA should be realistic about the fact that e.g. shit like a legislature whose job is to get nothing done isn’t how you w…

>Sucked ass if you were a minority This is just propaganda from minority groups. For the vast majority of non-immigrant minorities, life has been reliably excellent.

We put ethnic Japanese in concentration camps after stealing away every bit of wealth they accumulated.

White women have only been able to vote for 100 years. Some black women half that.

American Indians were driven off their land.

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#209

The PRC isn’t fucking around. They’re playing for the whole show and the West is bringing a significantly weaker game than it did against a significantly dumber geopolitical adversary last time. Being England or whatever isn’t the end of the world, there is life after global hegemony, but e.g. the USA should be realistic about the fact that e.g. shit like a legislature whose job is to get nothing done isn’t how you w…

> I’m not sure when it all went sideways,

When we sold our manufacturing base and equipment to them, then bought the same products from them just shipped over seas. They had suppressed labor prices and used it to tilt the table.

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#210

Diversity happened. Civic nationalism empirically doesn't work [1]. Societies need some level of individual sacrifice for the group to prosper over the long term, and diversity kills the impulse to do that. Favoring the ingroup over the outgroup is a stable state for groups, starting from ants and ending with humans. Trying to eradicate those impulses was perhaps noble, but ended in utter failure. Hapless attempts at…

"The West" is absolutely reliant on the people that emigrate to it from elsewhere for its success. There is empirical evidence that startups that incorporate H1B workers see their measures of "financial performance, likelihood of going public, and quantity and quality of innovation" increase significantly[1], the paper detailing as such trended on HN not one week ago[2].

Efforts to stymie diversity and decrease immigration have in fact caused permanent damage to the industry. Insularity and ignorance concretely undermines both economic and social growth. China has come far by holding tight to the reins of private capital wealth and forcing it to reinvest in common infrastructure. Meanwhile the nations of "the west" have undermined their social safety nets and unmoored their hypercapitalists to the point that they have nothing better to do with their money then burn it up chasing their toddler cowboy astronaut fantasies.

1. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3459001

2. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28276814

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