Arm China Has Gone Rogue • Hacker News Board

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#191

Post by benreesman » Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 8:42 PM UTC

nootropicat wrote: post #173

Diversity happened. Civic nationalism empirically doesn't work [1]. Societies need some level of individual sacrifice for the group to prosper over the long term, and diversity kills the impulse to do that. Favoring the ingroup over the outgroup is a stable state for groups, starting from ants and ending with humans. Trying to eradicate those impulses was perhaps noble, but ended in utter failure. Hapless attempts at…

Somehow I fail to see a line from the civil rights movement to smash-and-grab late capitalism. Diversity happened a long time ago, treating minorities ever-so-slightly more like human beings fails the smell check for the cause of a crumbling distribution of rewards for hard work and innovation.

If I had to point to a single set of policies that I’d call an “own goal” it’s making it difficult for brilliant people to live and work in the West generally and the US in particular. Yeah, get your world-class technical education here and then get the fuck out of my country and into the H1-B maze.

Apparently we’ve got top people on that one.

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#192

Post by SavantIdiot » Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 8:42 PM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #23

klelatti wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sort of thing definitely has deterred investment in China. I was aware of it (in a very different industry) twenty years ago and it definitely affected decision making. It's impossible to track investments not made though.

To be honest it has now become politically toxic for a western company to announce a large investment in China.

Disney's "Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings" would like to have a word with you. Think they made a Chinese lore film for Americans?

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#193

Post by yodsanklai » Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 8:42 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #91

People need to wake up to the fact that China being a potential market of >1B people is an illusion. This is particularly relevant for any tech company. Let me spell it out: Chinese companies are extensions of the state. They are tools of Chinese foreign and trade policy. What cooperation you think US companies provide the US government, it is nothing in comparison. The Chinese government will ensure that no Western…

Naive question here: why China is able to close its market to foreign companies? Same thing for trade sanctions on Iran which impacted European companies but not China (if I'm not wrong). Seems they don't play by the same rules as anybody else.

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#194

Post by ipspam » Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 8:42 PM UTC

colordrops wrote: post #171

908B64B197 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Here's where I think this will first come to a head: I believe the US government will at some point soon decide that any person born in mainland China is a security risk as far as working on anything national security related. This will probably extend to key industries of national importance too (eg SpaceX). Even naturalization or birth in America can't erase ties to Chinese entities, through family links for inst…

Things will get really ugly once you codify special classes citizens and other US persons. It won't happen even though conservative congresspeople have been pushing for it for decades.

It will. Yet, any country has the right to discriminate in any way against someone wishing to enter the country. It's once those people are let in, and given citizenship or PR that they enjoy protections against discrimination.

This would have to be a "moving forward policy". Anyone in the US already enjoys protection against discrimination based on place of their birth or race.

In the future, it could be a condition of entry that people acknowledge they are not allowed to work in certain industries, for the government, or universities etc.

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#195

Post by monocasa » Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 8:42 PM UTC

klelatti wrote: post #175

jhgb wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm aware of how ARM operates. I just find it incredible that ARM would allow some entity to license its designs contrary to ARM's own intentions, or generally do anything that entity wanted to do with them, and ARM would just consent to it in places where law is enforced. I mean, shredding counterfeit imported goods has been a traditional pastime in the west.

These are not counterfeit goods though. Where has the law been broken in a way that gives Arm the power to act? Probably IP licensed under Chinese law and Arm China will probably get its way in Chinese courts.

As dylan522p is saying, it depends very heavily on the actual agreement. Which unfortunately isn't public and has historically been very different in each case so we can't even look at similar agreements for guidance.

That being said, it wouldn't be totally out there for a clause in the agreement that doesn't allow export of chips with this IP, and that would probably be enforced as ITO judgements allowing seizing chips and end devices at ingress points. The ITO would essentially treat them as counterfeit if all of those assumptions hold true, similar to how how remanufactured and ghost shift iPhone replacement parts famously get labeled as counterfeit legally.

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#196

Post by mmastrac » Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 8:42 PM UTC

nootropicat wrote: post #173

Diversity happened. Civic nationalism empirically doesn't work [1]. Societies need some level of individual sacrifice for the group to prosper over the long term, and diversity kills the impulse to do that. Favoring the ingroup over the outgroup is a stable state for groups, starting from ants and ending with humans. Trying to eradicate those impulses was perhaps noble, but ended in utter failure. Hapless attempts at…

You are quoting a paper described by the author as "twisted" to make the case against diversity while trying to argue against diversity.

> Putnam denied allegations he was arguing against diversity in society and contended that his paper had been "twisted" to make a case against race-based admissions to universities. He asserted that his "extensive research and experience confirm the substantial benefits of diversity, including racial and ethnic diversity, to our society." [1]

[1] wikipedia

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#197

Post by coryrc » Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 8:43 PM UTC

nootropicat wrote: post #173

Diversity happened. Civic nationalism empirically doesn't work [1]. Societies need some level of individual sacrifice for the group to prosper over the long term, and diversity kills the impulse to do that. Favoring the ingroup over the outgroup is a stable state for groups, starting from ants and ending with humans. Trying to eradicate those impulses was perhaps noble, but ended in utter failure. Hapless attempts at…

I wonder how many of the people who will be coming to flag you also blame Middle East strife on drawing lines without regard to ethnic territories?

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#198

Post by kelnos » Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 8:43 PM UTC

klelatti wrote: post #157

jaywalk wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fine within China, but you specifically mentioned exports. They aren't exporting this stuff to any country outside of a small handful.

Arm China is presumably licensing to Chinese SoC designers / manufacturers whose products are then included in devices that are exported.

They could try that, sure, but the "real" Arm would likely sue to stop imports at as many destinations as possible. And they'd probably win those court cases.

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#199

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 8:43 PM UTC

jbhouse wrote: post #146

It's almost like China wants to make sure nobody ever lets them near useful IP again. This just seems counterproductive for them in the long run, though if you understand geopolitics better than I do, please help my understand how this is a good long-term strategy for China

[deleted]

Re: Arm China Has Gone Rogue

#200

Post by prewett » Fri, Aug 27, 2021, 8:43 PM UTC

kazinator wrote: post #161

mokus wrote: post #147

This article repeats “安谋科技” so many times but as far as I can tell, doesn’t mention even once how I might attempt to pronounce it or recognize when anyone else mentions it in the future. Can anyone at least provide a transliteration?

谋 is the simplified form of 謀, which kanjidic has meanings like "conspire, cheat, impose on, plan, devise, scheme, have in mind, deceive". One Japanese word for conspiracy is in 陰謀 (inbō): conspiracy (lit: hidden plan); 陰謀論 (inbōron) means "conspiracy theory". The "Peacefuly Scheming Technology" company.

It's Chinese, though, not Japanese, and the Japanese meanings borrowed in the Tang dynasty are no longer modern Chinese. (Common words like "to eat" is 食 in Japanese, but in Chinese now that means "foodstuff" and is a noun, not a verb. The common Chinese word for to eat is 吃. There are a lot of these.)

谋 appears to mean more like "plan" as a neutral word. Obviously you could have hidden plans and devious plans as well as ambitious plans, public plans, wise plans, and helpful plans. I don't think anyone would name their company "Cheatful Scheme", even if that was actually their intention. And 谋 is modified by 安 (peace, safety, good health). So it'd be more like "Wholesome-safe plan".