I don't know how to IE6 • Hacker News Board

Re: I don't know how to IE6

#141

Post by dmethvin » Mon, Aug 01, 2011, 12:58 PM UTC

melling wrote: post #15

2% of the US uses IE6. Explain that to your boss and ask if it's still necessary to support it. [Update] For Google Apps, Google no longer supports IE7. YouTube support for IE6 was dropped a year ago, and they make a lot of ad money from YouTube now.

The browser market share does not matter, the _conversion_ share does. I've heard from several large retailers that IE6 comprises a significantly higher share of their online sales than the market share would indicate. That could be because Grandma's PC hasn't been upgrade, but it might also be because people are buying stuff on their lunch hour with their nasty old IT-department-supported XP with IE6.

Re: I don't know how to IE6

#142

Post by retro212 » Mon, Aug 01, 2011, 1:31 PM UTC

chris24 wrote: post #30

So Colby... does CSS still make you smile (as you say on http://colbyrabideau.com/ )? :)

Funny thing, his site looks broken in Firefox - top menu is out of the screen and page has a horizontal scroll

Re: I don't know how to IE6

#143

Post by JanezStupar » Mon, Aug 01, 2011, 1:37 PM UTC

mattdeboard wrote: post #128

JanezStupar wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if I misread your post or you edited it afterwards. When I originally read it I have seen punctuation that made your post imply that legacy browser support SHOULD be taught and that rookies SHOULD be indoctrinated in legacy support. I apologize for misreading your post. p.s.: If you had to support IE6 - then you are a graybeard :D. Even if you are a 25 year old graybeard.

Nope, never edited it. edit: Also, I really like the layout of your blog. The font & placement of your headlines is really nice.

Thank you. I like it too. However credit goes to Posterous team, since its one of the default themes.

Thank you for reminding me about it. Must add more content.

Re: I don't know how to IE6

#144

Post by lwhi » Mon, Aug 01, 2011, 1:40 PM UTC

IE6 is a necessary evil in some circumstances. You're young - you need to be flexible. Complaining won't help.

--

Practical steps that could help:

Produce your standards compliant site. Then, to deal with IE quirks:

1. Ensure you've used a resets CSS script - level the ground before you start to build.

2. Serve separate CSS files for IE6/7/8 using conditional comments, which overrides any styling that requires IE specific workarounds.

3. Learn a handful of workarounds to deal with problems you might encounter.

--

If you follow these three points, IE really won't be so much of a headache.

--

And remember: [1]

(Follow the principles of progressive enhancement: [2])

[1] http://dowebsitesneedtolookexactlythesameineverybrowser.com/

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_enhancement

Re: I don't know how to IE6

#145

Post by clintjhill » Mon, Aug 01, 2011, 1:43 PM UTC

This debate is getting really thin. It seems we all live in a world where 5-6% of users are on IE 6. Yet we give this percentage huge leverage in our development efforts. Arguments that "clients are using it on sites/services they pay for" are misguided. What everyone should be doing is developing against forward looking APIs (HTML 5) and shimming to the non-compliant browsers. And for IE 6 in particular we should develop UX that let's the user know they are missing out, with instructions on how to update. It's not about ignoring them or leaving them in the dark - it's about educating them on what they are missing. Just the security aspects alone could prompt a user to update.

For the corporations who still image the desktops and/or make IE 6 standard: stop buying vendor products that require it. Easier said than done I know. But if serious IT groups were serious about saving money and/or standards they'd simply admit that IE 6 is costing them more than an update to their "standard browser".

Re: I don't know how to IE6

#146

Post by morisy » Mon, Aug 01, 2011, 1:45 PM UTC

This post was worth the vote just because of the fond memories hacking through browser compatibility issues in the early 2000s. I'd literally cry sometimes, but I suppose it taught valuable lessons about the cost of long-term support, customer satisfaction, and the demands of building a shipping product vs. a nice tech demo.

Part of life as being an employee is learning to deal with things like this. Unfortunately, part of life being a boss/founder/owner is having to ignore all the perfectly reasonable complaints and say do it anyways, because there are business, political, or other reasons it has to be done.

That said, this special taste of hell used to be developing any site, repeated for every browser, back before all these fancy CSS frameworks that did all the hacks for you.

Given all that, I think the OP has the right approach: Sucking up and dealing with it at work, and campaigning on his private site to move onwards and upwards. Has my vote.

Re: I don't know how to IE6

#147

Post by clintjhill » Mon, Aug 01, 2011, 1:48 PM UTC

lwhi wrote: post #144

IE6 is a necessary evil in some circumstances. You're young - you need to be flexible. Complaining won't help. -- Practical steps that could help: Produce your standards compliant site. Then, to deal with IE quirks: 1. Ensure you've used a resets CSS script - level the ground before you start to build. 2. Serve separate CSS files for IE6/7/8 using conditional comments, which overrides any styling that requires IE spe…

I realize you're trying to help. However.

Necessary evil is an "enabling" statement. In my opinion this doesn't help circumstances but only prolongs it.

It's more evil than necessary and it's only necessary because we keep allowing it to be.

Re: I don't know how to IE6

#148

Post by smackfu » Mon, Aug 01, 2011, 1:50 PM UTC

melling wrote: post #38

enjo wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really depends on the domain. That two percent can be the difference between wildly profitable and failing. After all, Google still happily sells clicks to IE 6 users. If you're business relies on external ads and optimizing conversion rates, IE 6 remains a priority.

Google dropped IE6 support for YouTube over a year ago. They are dropping Google Apps support for IE7 on Aug 1st (that's today for some people reading this). For search results it's probably more worthwhile and not as hard to support the IE's but for their other apps they say they are only supporting that two most recent browsers.

I'm sure the videos still launch in the Flash plugin in IE6, so not sure how important dropping support is.

Re: I don't know how to IE6

#149

Post by smackfu » Mon, Aug 01, 2011, 1:52 PM UTC

pawelwentpawel wrote: post #65

emp_ wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linking w3schools for anything web is like linking FOX News for politics. *edit: more info http://w3fools.com/

Didn't know that. What would you suggest as a legit browser stats then?

The problem is that their users are not a representative sampling of the overall browser market since they heavily skew towards web developers. If you are also making a site for web developers, then the w3schools numbers are valid. Otherwise, no.

Re: I don't know how to IE6

#150

Post by lwhi » Mon, Aug 01, 2011, 1:55 PM UTC

clintjhill wrote: post #147

lwhi wrote: post #144

IE6 is a necessary evil in some circumstances. You're young - you need to be flexible. Complaining won't help. -- Practical steps that could help: Produce your standards compliant site. Then, to deal with IE quirks: 1. Ensure you've used a resets CSS script - level the ground before you start to build. 2. Serve separate CSS files for IE6/7/8 using conditional comments, which overrides any styling that requires IE spe…

I realize you're trying to help. However. Necessary evil is an "enabling" statement. In my opinion this doesn't help circumstances but only prolongs it. It's more evil than necessary and it's only necessary because we keep allowing it to be.

The majority of people involved in technology are thinking people. Some of these people are part of large corporations which currently use IE6 because the cost of updating legacy systems is overly prohibitive.

They don't use IE6 because they lack education or intelligence - they're using it because the business case for leaving IE6 behind isn't as strong as the business case for keeping it.

It's not impossible to produce a site which functions well with IE6. Some sites won't need to consider it, but IMO particular types of site (ecommerce for example) must support it, because one single conversion can bring the parent company a lot of money.