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The rise of user-hostile software

den.dev

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Re: The rise of user-hostile software

#231

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

zelon88 wrote: post #141
zksmk wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Something weird happened over the past decade. I blame it on social media monopolies, or at least effective monopolies, oligopolies, and the network effect. Once everyone was sucked into these silos and unable to leave they could do whatever they wanted with the user experience without repercussions. And once everyone was used to it and took it as a given it was only a matter of time before it leaked even into deskt…

> which means the rise of Linux desktop or Fediverse platforms, and that's gonna be a while, but not impossible. I like to hope you're right, but I don't believe you are. Most people don't want to learn more about tech. They just want tech to be intuitive enough to pick up and use. The mobile market appeared because Windows is too big and cumbersome. That's why people advertised it as a skill on their resume. It isn'…

I agree. Based on what I saw those that want to move either have or are exploring their options already.

Average user is perfectly content with what they have, because it requires zero new knowledge and zero extra work. Linux is still anything but that.

edit: Come to think of it. It is a good thing. Web became mainstream and see what happened to it.

Re: The rise of user-hostile software

#232

Post by horsawlarway »

wolrah wrote: post #57
selfhoster11 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I blame it on web development, pure and simple. The relentless drive for analytics and advertising is what brought the acceptance of spying.

I blame marketing departments being given too much (read: almost any) control over product development. No developer cares about the level of analytics being pushed today, and unless they're profit sharing they probably don't care about the ads either. Those anti-features are there because marketing departments want them there and have enough power to get what they want. Don't let marketing make product decisions.

Back up even farther, though - SO MANY PRODUCTS are literally indistinguishable outside of marketing.

I think the issue is much deeper than "don't let marketing make product decisions".

Browse through any app store - click a category, and it's a sea of apps that provide essentially the same capabilities.

Just like your grocery store has a sea of jars filled with slightly varying salsa.

So take the diagram in the article:

Customers asked for it: Check.

Customers would benefit from it: Check.

We built/tested/shipped it: Check.

What's the missing step? Did ANYONE fucking buy it?!?!

And it turns out none of the other steps actually matter compared to the last one, if the goal is to remain a functioning company.

Re: The rise of user-hostile software

#233

Post by michaelcampbell »

slingnow wrote: post #226
michaelcampbell wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> back then it was universally known that those toolbars and extensions are distributed by assholes. Clearly not the case or they wouldn't have been as ubiquitous as they were.

They were ubiquitous because your unwitting grandparents wanted into install some simple application and weren't savvy enough to read and uncheck all of the boxes that installed the new Ask Jeeves toolbar.

Right, that's partially my point. My unwitting grandparents are precisely in the set of "universally", and they didn't know nor care by whom these apps were distributed.

Re: The rise of user-hostile software

#235

Post by lutorm »

nonameiguess wrote: post #97
greatgib wrote: post #44

This article is globally so true, but there is a major error: It is not "needs of developers" the problem, but the "needs of product manager, marketing, c-level asshole". Like for telemetry, most of the time the business side "can", so they do. And again, for specific app and co, most developer would complain and not like release such user-hostile software but they are forced by business to do it. Like this stupid pr…

"Developer" here isn't being used to mean only the people who directly write code. It means the entire organization responsible for developing the product, which includes the managers, marketing, and executives. As in Microsoft the company is the developer of Windows, and Windows is made in such a way as to prioritize the needs of Microsoft over the needs of Windows users. They're not prioritizing the needs of any sp…

Isn't it sort of obvious that practically every product developed for profit is done for the benefit of the organization doing it?

"The needs of the user" is just one factor for satisfying the primary incentive, which is making money. The needs of the user needs to be met to the point that they are willing to pay money for it, anything more you're not maximizing your profit. I mean, why would you expect anything to be different.

I primarily blame the users. They're the ones who accept this shit and still give their money. If they don't want user-hostile software, they shouldn't use it. If people refused to pay for it, things would change. And yeah, that might come with some sacrifices.

Re: The rise of user-hostile software

#236

Post by [deleted] »

dend wrote: post #180
quickthrower2 wrote: post #32

> At the time of writing, this blog collects anonymized data with Google Analytics. Don’t want to send it? Have your browser send a Do Not Track request and no data will leave this page. It takes an if statement to do this, not a month of engineering work. How is this consistent with the message to not be hostile?

OP here. You have an explicit option to opt out, no gimmicks.

[deleted]

Re: The rise of user-hostile software

#237

Post by liketochill »

ryandrake wrote: post #160
greatgib wrote: post #44

This article is globally so true, but there is a major error: It is not "needs of developers" the problem, but the "needs of product manager, marketing, c-level asshole". Like for telemetry, most of the time the business side "can", so they do. And again, for specific app and co, most developer would complain and not like release such user-hostile software but they are forced by business to do it. Like this stupid pr…

> And again, for specific app and co, most developer would complain and not like release such user-hostile software but they are forced by business to do it For every dark pattern, invasive analytics package, adware, malware, spyware that gets added to a product, there is an actual software developer sitting in a chair, voluntarily adding it. Maybe someone here on HN, reading this very thread! Nobody is putting a gun…

Professional Engineers have to take ethics courses and have values which include protecting the public welfare.

I would like to see something similar for people writing software.

What keeps Professional Engineers honest is that they are accountable to the discipline committee and liable for negligence. This is in stark contrast to consumer software which comes with no guarantees other than a click through EULA.

Re: The rise of user-hostile software

#238

Post by benatkin »

stadium wrote: post #130

I saw my get kid prompted to pay $59.99 usd to buy in-game achievements for the hill climb racing game on Android. That's a f-ton of money to be soliciting from anyone, yet alone a kid. He's not quite at reading age and just clicks things. The game design and characters is clearly targeting kids. In my opinion, these aren't games any more, they are gambling.

I've played Hill Climb Racing, and it's a pretty awesome game, even for an adult. The varying gravity, and inaccurate but fun physics, and the variety, are what made it fun for me. I haven't played it in years, and after that moved on to Geometry Dash, which I see myself wanting to play in the future more than Hill Climb Racing. I've scoffed at Candy Crush, but wondered if people who play that might feel the same way I did about Hill Climb Racing.

I think the price is high, but not absurd. I don't know how you'd determine the maximum price in a way that was fair to everyone.

Re: The rise of user-hostile software

#239

Post by billytetrud »

the_other wrote: post #127
selfhoster11 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I blame it on web development, pure and simple. The relentless drive for analytics and advertising is what brought the acceptance of spying.

As a career front-end developer, I take affront at this. I have never argued in favour of any of the shit people face on the web on a daily basis. I’m close to wanting to get out of the industry because the product is so toxic these days. The people are largely great, I love my current team.. but every month we’re told to add more tracking, or advertising (from Google of all people). I could leave out of political di…

Start your own company

Re: The rise of user-hostile software

#240

Post by phendrenad2 »

thewebcount wrote: post #211

Oh man, I just ran into this. I work on a product that has a 3rd party API so other people can write plug-ins to extend the functionality of the app. It's great for users and developers. We received a bug report related to a particular plug-in, so I went to download their demo to see if the problem was on our end or theirs before contacting them. Here's how the process went: 1) Go to their website and click "Download…

Do you work on the Lumberyard engine? lol
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