We Hire Old People • Hacker News Board

Re: We Hire Old People

#121

Post by pandaman » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 6:35 PM UTC

api wrote: post #90

cjohnson318 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked at an electric autonomous car company in the Bay Area (not that one) that was crawling with 22 year olds slinging code every which way. Periodically a bug emerge that the younger generation couldn't get their head around. Invariably one of the older guys (in his 50's or 60's) would spend an afternoon looking at it, fix it, and then yell at all the kids in the room. I was somewhere between the two age groups…

I've seen this too, and I really wonder why there is such an age bias toward straight out of college kids. Having some is fine but the whole industry seems heavily biased in that direction. I suspect it's rooted in the historic youth of computer aficionados back during the early-mid PC era in the 1970s and 1980s, and a cargo cult idea that youth was the ingredient that made this stuff happen. Instead it was the other…

Most likely it's the way the fresh grads get hired: they go through internships either in the same company or in the direct competition and this largely increases their perceived value. It's as same as people normally returning to the same shops/services and following referrals of their acquittances, "a devil you know" etc.

Re: We Hire Old People

#122

Post by vidanay » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 6:35 PM UTC

Mattiusly wrote: post #79

ccleve wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't even get to the interview stage. My tech skills never got assessed.

Same with me. I'm to the point that I'm going to create an alternate resume that only lists experience of less than 8 years, instead of 30+, and use a very old photo of myself on socials.

8 years would only be 40% of my current job tenure.

Re: We Hire Old People

#123

Post by gabereiser » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 6:36 PM UTC

Anecdotally I've had someone who was older than me, with less experience, talk to and treat me like a college graduate... They used soft language and acted like I didn't know what IoC was or how to model a domain. The guy was the worst coder of the bunch but for some reason he was in charge of the backend development because of his seniority. He was the worst developer/manager hybrid I've ever come across. It was a security software startup and he constantly challenged me with questions like "least privileged expansive" to describe the security models. I'd answer him, and a week later he would go through those motions again - and again. I definitely believe there is ageism in this sector, but I also believe it goes both ways.

Re: We Hire Old People

#124

Post by nonameiguess » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 6:37 PM UTC

frankbreetz wrote: post #78

bequanna wrote: post #51

Admirable, but in practice this is tough. We have always been age-agnostic and all our engineering hires are remote. I don’t explicitly ask, but can get a sense of how old someone is in the phone call portion of interview. My takeaway from doing hundreds of these interviews is that even after correcting for experience levels, age correlates with inflated expectations: salary, paid vacation, benefits, etc. This alone…

This seems strange to me, it seems these people would continue adjusting salary and benefits exceptions downward until they found a job, or they would find a company that is paying what they are looking for. I know it is a lucrative field, but is every software developer 40+ financially established enough to be that picky? Side note: paid vacations seem like pretty low exceptions, maybe you are taking advantage of in…

I'm a 40+ developer, and yes, we do find companies that will pay what we're looking for. If this guy won't, fine, feel free to hire cheaper developers. That's the way a competitive labor market is supposed to work. Employers can't just get their pick of whoever the heck they want at a price they unilaterally name unless they're the only employer. Thankfully, they aren't.

Re: We Hire Old People

#125

Post by reaperducer » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 6:39 PM UTC

api wrote: post #90

cjohnson318 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked at an electric autonomous car company in the Bay Area (not that one) that was crawling with 22 year olds slinging code every which way. Periodically a bug emerge that the younger generation couldn't get their head around. Invariably one of the older guys (in his 50's or 60's) would spend an afternoon looking at it, fix it, and then yell at all the kids in the room. I was somewhere between the two age groups…

I've seen this too, and I really wonder why there is such an age bias toward straight out of college kids. Having some is fine but the whole industry seems heavily biased in that direction. I suspect it's rooted in the historic youth of computer aficionados back during the early-mid PC era in the 1970s and 1980s, and a cargo cult idea that youth was the ingredient that made this stuff happen. Instead it was the other…

why there is such an age bias toward straight out of college kids

Follow the money. College kids are cheap. Someone who's been coding for 40 years knows what he's worth and won't fall for vaporware stock options instead of proper health insurance.

Re: We Hire Old People

#126

Post by ianlevesque » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 6:40 PM UTC

bee_rider wrote: post #77

ajay-b wrote: post #29

I want more companies to follow this. Age is a good thing in most industries, maybe all. I think silicon valley’s stock market drove it towards a “younger is cheaper and will work for free lunch” and that pushed our elders out.

Or that programmers who'd rather focus on things like "minimum viable products" and "just get something down" rather than "designing maintainable systems" and "avoiding sources of tech debt" skew young/inexperienced.

I’m just as capable of adding tech debt as a younger engineer is!

Re: We Hire Old People

#127

Post by cjohnson318 » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

reactordev wrote: post #115

klardotsh wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd venture a guess that (especially in SV/venture tech startups in general) that bias also comes from young folks not having many/any external commitments, so may be easier to get to work longer hours - someone with a family probably can't pull a 60 hour week as easily as someone living in a microstudio with few other cares in the world, yeah?

Absolutely this. It's easier to force younger coders into a slave-like work environment, complete with beer on tap, foosball tables, and other amenities to get them to live at the office to constantly work on the product(s). I can't say it's like that everywhere, but most startups are _designed_ to take advantage of their workforce to quickly "move fast and break things" looking for their market fit.

I'd like to see numbers on how many companies actually have beer on tap, or foosball/ping-pong tables at work in 2021.

I worked at a place with a foosball and ping-pong table in 2018, but they were infrequently used, and when they were in use, it was always the same three guys.

Re: We Hire Old People

#128

Post by partdavid » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 6:45 PM UTC

yupper32 wrote: post #55

Why do I feel uncomfortable with this listing? Maybe it's because I'm a 20 something dev in Silicon Valley? Maybe it's because I don't trust anyone who calls themselves experts in anything? Maybe it's because I work with plenty of "older" devs in Silicon Valley? Or that I think the two-jobs-at-once hiring process is horrible? I probably shouldn't feel uncomfortable with it, but I do. I guess the ad isn't for me, thou…

I'm old as well and I'm uncomfortable with it. The tone is kind of passive-aggressive and although this extended temp-to-hire thing is paid, it also rubs me the wrong way; like you, I can't completely say why. I'd be curious to see if it works for people, though (I kind of suspect it won't because of the time investment involved but who knows).

It's also hard to explain but by coupling the "we hire old people" with "but we're not actually hiring you, just putting you through an extended probation with no benefits, security, or investment" it kind feels like the opposite of inclusive. It's a whiff, you know, it's their company, they can hire how they like, but it's weird to focus on one form of illegal discrimination they don't engage in and follow it up with extra hiring hoops.

Re: We Hire Old People

#129

Post by yupper32 » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 6:46 PM UTC

kbenson wrote: post #98

yupper32 wrote: post #55

Why do I feel uncomfortable with this listing? Maybe it's because I'm a 20 something dev in Silicon Valley? Maybe it's because I don't trust anyone who calls themselves experts in anything? Maybe it's because I work with plenty of "older" devs in Silicon Valley? Or that I think the two-jobs-at-once hiring process is horrible? I probably shouldn't feel uncomfortable with it, but I do. I guess the ad isn't for me, thou…

> Maybe it's because I'm a 20 something dev in Silicon Valley? So, you don't like competing with older people? They say they hire young people too, so I'm not sure why else your age would have any bearing. > Maybe it's because I don't trust anyone who calls themselves experts in anything? Some people or organizations really are though. They exist. Google are experts on search. I don't think anyone could support an ar…

> So, you don't like competing with older people? They say they hire young people too, so I'm not sure why else your age would have any bearing.

Huh? No, not what I said.

They seem to try to say they don't bias against a group of people, and then turn around and be passive aggressive against younger devs in Silicon Valley.

Age clearly has a bearing. They bold "We hire old people". They're already primed to think about the age of their candidates, and potentially bias towards older people.

Re: We Hire Old People

#130

Post by pengaru » Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 6:48 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #114

herval wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Younger people have more to prove, have nothing to lose, have no understanding of the politics of work - all that makes it easier to "extract more" from them - in particular new grads, who are "blank slates" you can train to your culture very easily. This may sound very cynical, but it's literally how big consultancies (not only in tech) define their hiring strategies - PwC being one of the prime examples, where new…

That may all be true, but (at least some) older people have more to extract.

> That may all be true, but (at least some) older people have more to extract.

Not when multiplied by number of hours foolishly spent on employer interests while caught up in the competitive frenzy with effectively zero other obligations.