This is a huge load of bullshit. 99% of the "banking programmers" are some of the worst coders in the world. A vast majority of them just babysit a Bloomberg terminal, barely understanding the supposed math they use all day. Others just babysit an Excel spreadsheet, or worse, develop whole applications in Excel then try to get a real programmer to "build it". The lower echelons are even worse and just make shitty C#…
I am an HFT Programmer
71–80 of 246 posts
Re: I am an HFT Programmer
#72I have a friend who works in trading. He's very sharp and very smart and has friends who work for D.E. Shaw. I used to ask why he didn't go work for D.E. Shaw and he said that he would never survive the interview gauntlet there. And most importantly, he would not be smart enough. Now, I know how good at math my friend is (he used to win Games t-shirts - from the magazine and studies math at graduate level). And now w…
Re: I am an HFT Programmer
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
"The only way for an engineer to make real money is to be a quant, found a startup or join an early stage startup." This statement should be included in every CS curriculum.
Even normal developer salaries amount to a lot of money compared to median household incomes. I'm known as the "rich one" in my family, and I haven't taken any risks at all. It's all relative, I guess.
It all depends on your industry, of course, but once you hit 40-50, you're competing with younger developers who have more energy and require far less compensation.
Hence the need to make "real money" before you hit the age ceiling.
Re: I am an HFT Programmer
#74It's true, and it's somewhat discouraging. When I was in my last year in college, I applied to various types of companies, in different stages of life, plus a quant fund. In the end, while the salary/potential bonus for the fund was very enticing (despite not having graduated yet), I stuck with the middle-of-the-road tech company. (I also looked at Google and Dropbox but decided to go to FB). Google was desperate for…
Squirrel it away for 5 years then retire on 5% returns on a million bucks ($50,000) a year?
Re: I am an HFT Programmer
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sounds like your friend might suffer from impostor syndrome.
Doesn't sound to me like he's really suffering. Suffering requires someone to suffer. And no, to me this isn't really pedantry.
Re: I am an HFT Programmer
#76In response to the OP, zedshaw and a couple of others (who make good points), I'd say:
* obviously if you're good at your job in HFT after a while you don't have to work 100 hour weeks. People wait for you. There are levels of support. You still get woken up once in a while, but not if the firm is well structured and the support training / delegation is good.
* people are right in that the closer you are to the money, the more financial upside (and downside) you usually have.
* there are some very mediocre programmers, like in any sector -- however, they tend to not last as long because the trading side is very demanding (in terms of quality) and that filters down pretty quickly.
* do the people who really know what they're doing in the trading and HFT space have an OCD level of awareness of all levels of their code? sometimes. and it's easy to then conclude that this must not be found in other fields/areas. i can't speak for the rest of the world, but there are exceptions everywhere i've been.
in fact, i wouldn't even say it's the norm that in HFT people are more capable of deep diving into assembly or whatever. however, basically there are a handful of people in HFT who have been fortunate enough to grow up in that industry and have made mistakes without being fired -- and those people are very bright and careful about their code, and the large purchasing price for quality/reliability and quickness delivered does affect things on a macro scale probably. there's also basically a lot of hard-core russian programmers (from the many different technical universities in russia) who are quite rigorous with their code and trust the idea of finance more than the idea of startups or silicon valley even -- but this is probably a generalization (just my experience perhaps).
most software rewriting is trivial once you know what you have to do. and most software projects don't 'know what they have to do' until half way through. i used to work with a guy who made a point of rewriting ALL trading-related code every two years. another guy didn't trust OSS because he thought it was mostly hobbyist. they're both sort of wrong -- but it's a different culture/mindset. and these guys weren't idiots. respectively, they were some of the lead developers / architects for some of the largest algorithmic shops in chicago.
but my point is that programming for HFT or real-time trading requires that you really know what you're doing down to each line of code, so that you can react when things do break (and they will break). if you can't react quickly, you will eventually not find yourself on interesting projects and you might even get fired.
so ironically you have to slow down and really get to know how to do programming very carefully, and then scale that up so that you can react really quickly later (with something like binary search). this is a useful thing to practice in some ways. other people probably learn variants of it in other fields.
* the recession hit large parts of the financial sector pretty hard. i went back and visited chicago somewhat recently (now work in SV). i can't speak to everyone, but if i were an undergraduate or someone trying to figure out career trajectories for the first time, i would feel much more secure in even the startup space than in financial services at this point. because you know most of that is going to be replaced (with automated, distributed technology) in our lifetime.
Re: I am an HFT Programmer
#77That hourly rate is pretty crappy for that level and amount of work. (<$100)
I was pretty shocked with I saw that guy said he hoped to make $500k for the year. Sounds like the profits aren't making their way down to the developers.
Re: I am an HFT Programmer
#78Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your analysis is a bit superficial. The government connections keep them from being regulated but don't adequately explain how they can skim so much off the top. For instance, how do the big firms (e.g. Goldman) manage to get into oil futures, create new fangled products that others will buy, get everyone to follow them into the same market sector, raise the price of oil, pocket billions of dollars, and leave the mar…
I agree with everything you said with one important exception: The finance industry is not corrupt because of a lack of regulations. It is corrupt because of the regulations. The fact that Federal Reserve has been regulated into existence is a very deep problem, as is the fact that fractional reserve banks are always protected from failing by regulations. Regulations are the problem, not the answer.
Thus, we are already out of the perfect world imagined by Austrian economists and exposing the simplistic lie that their worldview entails -- the social union that is the state is not merely a machine but, in the American republic, exists by the consent of the governed. Consequently, it has the power to issue additional regulations deemed to be in the interests of the governed, of which one might be that there be a single national currency, a single national language, etc. This is because our state is rooted in a Lockean social contract (with undoubtedly a good sprinkling of Hobbes).
Now, the precise nature of the regulations and whether or not they serve the people and whether or not they are consistent with the founding documents and accompanying intentions of the Republic is not always clear. Nonetheless, I think it is clear enough that at least in the American republic (if not a Randian inspired anti-state) that regulations are sometimes an answer to various problems.
Consequently, I would argue that if the SEC was able to attract and retain top talent and execute on its mandate it would have been able to stop this sub-prime nonsense in its tracks long before the present bubble burst and infected the rest of the economy with its TARPy bile. This is exactly why it existed -- because history tells us that banks like Goldman cannot be trusted to regulate themselves and act within the interests of the American people.
Re: I am an HFT Programmer
#79Earlier quoted context omitted.
Indeed. What is the point of making so much money if you don't have time to spend it or have anything that resembles a life for that matter.
Because you can make enough money to retire before you are 30, which means you can spend much more time with your wife and kids when that time comes. I wouldnt want to be the type of dad who has to stress out about money issues.
Re: I am an HFT Programmer
#80I worked for a time in finance and investment banking. Problem-wise it can be pretty interesting but it's important to distinguish between two classes of developers. 1. Traders; and 2. Non-traders. Engineers who are traders are typically called "quants" (quantitative traders) as they write software that employs trading strategies to make money, as one or more of spread trading (trading between the bid-ask spread), pr…
>Spread trading (or "market making") is also misunderstood. People see market makers as scalpers when in fact they're providing a valuable service: they're creating liquidity. The reason you can buy or sell shares at any time (rather than waiting for a seller or buyer to show up) is because of market makers. Except market makers generally target markets which are already highly liquid, so I would guess most of them a…
Market makers can't artificially widen the spread without taking a position--sometimes a significant position--which carries a lot more risk. Spread trading in its purest form is about holding enough stock much like a business holds cash as an operating budget to handle cash flow, not as an investment in and of itself.