I am an HFT Programmer • Hacker News Board

Re: I am an HFT Programmer

#51

Post by mwg66 » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 5:12 PM UTC

apaprocki wrote: post #47

zedshaw wrote: post #34

This is a huge load of bullshit. 99% of the "banking programmers" are some of the worst coders in the world. A vast majority of them just babysit a Bloomberg terminal, barely understanding the supposed math they use all day. Others just babysit an Excel spreadsheet, or worse, develop whole applications in Excel then try to get a real programmer to "build it". The lower echelons are even worse and just make shitty C#…

So one takeaway from this gem of a post is that if you don't write open-source code you're a shitty programmer?

I think the point is that anybody can say they write great code if they never have show it to anyone.

Re: I am an HFT Programmer

#52

Post by 46Bit » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 5:13 PM UTC

georgieporgie wrote: post #16

wallflower wrote: post #3

I have a friend who works in trading. He's very sharp and very smart and has friends who work for D.E. Shaw. I used to ask why he didn't go work for D.E. Shaw and he said that he would never survive the interview gauntlet there. And most importantly, he would not be smart enough. Now, I know how good at math my friend is (he used to win Games t-shirts - from the magazine and studies math at graduate level). And now w…

Sounds like your friend might suffer from impostor syndrome.

Doesn't sound to me like he's really suffering. Suffering requires someone to suffer. And no, to me this isn't really pedantry.

Re: I am an HFT Programmer

#53

Post by sleight42 » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 5:14 PM UTC

jasonkester wrote: post #37

Quick quiz: Given the ability to charge $100/hr for your time (which is what this guy's rate works out to), would you prefer to make: a.) $500,000 by working 100hr weeks b.) $250k by working 50hr weeks Me? I tend to lean toward secret option c: make $100k by working 25 40hr weeks, then spend the rest of the year squandering it on a beach with tall cold beers, good surfing/climbing and good wifi. Gotta keep them prior…

Spot on! I was on the verge of writing almost the same reply only to find yours.

Let's crunch the numbers:

52 weeks/year - 4 weeks for vacation = 48 weeks

$500,000 / 48 weeks = $10,417 / week

$10,417 / 1 week * 1 week/ 100 hours = $104.17/hr

As a freelance developer, in the US, and particularly in this startup economy (bubble?), it is entirely possible to earn 500k/year working 100 hours/week. Most modest freelancers I know these days charge at least $100/hr -- and many of them are clearly under selling themselves.

jasonkester above asks what I consider the better question: do you want to work 100hrs/week?

As a freelancer, you'd be better off charging a higher rate than $100/hr, if you have the skills and marketing to back it up, and working fewer hours.

Me? I'm with jasonkester. I'll stick my "anemic" 25-30 billable hours/week and retain some semblance of sanity.

Oh, and not working for the fat cats on Wall St? Priceless.

Re: I am an HFT Programmer

#54

Post by apaprocki » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 5:18 PM UTC

mwg66 wrote: post #51

apaprocki wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So one takeaway from this gem of a post is that if you don't write open-source code you're a shitty programmer?

I think the point is that anybody can say they write great code if they never have show it to anyone.

I understand that, but not everyone runs around claiming they're awesome seeking validation from Zed Shaw. There are lots of great programmers in every field that involves a computer. There are bad ones too, just like in open-source. To claim that there are no good programmers in any given field is nonsense.

Re: I am an HFT Programmer

#55

Post by sixtofour » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 5:19 PM UTC

drp wrote: post #13

samlevine wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>they get paid well, but they're also doing work of dubious value. Unless they're getting paid at a rate determined by regulations, by definition the value of their work is what their employer is willing to pay.

I believe the "value" being referred to here is social rather than financial.

Money can serve as a rough indicator of social value. For example, based on pay, society does not value teachers very much.

Re: I am an HFT Programmer

#56

Post by veyron » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 5:19 PM UTC

DasIch wrote: post #42

jasonkester wrote: post #37

Quick quiz: Given the ability to charge $100/hr for your time (which is what this guy's rate works out to), would you prefer to make: a.) $500,000 by working 100hr weeks b.) $250k by working 50hr weeks Me? I tend to lean toward secret option c: make $100k by working 25 40hr weeks, then spend the rest of the year squandering it on a beach with tall cold beers, good surfing/climbing and good wifi. Gotta keep them prior…

Indeed. What is the point of making so much money if you don't have time to spend it or have anything that resembles a life for that matter.

Because you can make enough money to retire before you are 30, which means you can spend much more time with your wife and kids when that time comes. I wouldnt want to be the type of dad who has to stress out about money issues.

Re: I am an HFT Programmer

#57

Post by rgrieselhuber » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 5:20 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #39

I worked for a time in finance and investment banking. Problem-wise it can be pretty interesting but it's important to distinguish between two classes of developers. 1. Traders; and 2. Non-traders. Engineers who are traders are typically called "quants" (quantitative traders) as they write software that employs trading strategies to make money, as one or more of spread trading (trading between the bid-ask spread), pr…

"The only way for an engineer to make real money is to be a quant, found a startup or join an early stage startup."

This statement should be included in every CS curriculum.

Re: I am an HFT Programmer

#58

Post by zedshaw » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 5:20 PM UTC

apaprocki wrote: post #47

zedshaw wrote: post #34

This is a huge load of bullshit. 99% of the "banking programmers" are some of the worst coders in the world. A vast majority of them just babysit a Bloomberg terminal, barely understanding the supposed math they use all day. Others just babysit an Excel spreadsheet, or worse, develop whole applications in Excel then try to get a real programmer to "build it". The lower echelons are even worse and just make shitty C#…

So one takeaway from this gem of a post is that if you don't write open-source code you're a shitty programmer?

Funny, I didn't use open source at all in that post. I said, they don't show it to anyone and I meant even other employees at the bank. Some of those dudes guarded their secret sauce like crazy, even when I was asked to help them improve it. When I finally got in to see it, it was a nasty horrible mess.

But hey, good lame-troll attempt.

Re: I am an HFT Programmer

#59

Post by sixtofour » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 5:21 PM UTC

orijing wrote: post #48

TheEzEzz wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Squirrel it away for 5 years then retire on 5% returns on a million bucks ($50,000) a year?

But I don't want to retire! I know that by doing what I love for the rest of my life, I'll have enough to sustain my basic needs. 500k seems excessive. It's simultaneously too much for me to spend efficiently for myself, yet too small for me to do bigger things like fight cancer, invest in education, etc (like Bill Gates).

Retire doesn't have to mean slippers, robe and couch. It could mean being free to pursue interests and goals regardless of the employment landscape.

Re: I am an HFT Programmer

#60

Post by apaprocki » Sun, Jul 31, 2011, 5:22 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #39

I worked for a time in finance and investment banking. Problem-wise it can be pretty interesting but it's important to distinguish between two classes of developers. 1. Traders; and 2. Non-traders. Engineers who are traders are typically called "quants" (quantitative traders) as they write software that employs trading strategies to make money, as one or more of spread trading (trading between the bid-ask spread), pr…

I would argue that this entire "Wall Street programmer" notion is a bit broad. You don't need to work in a bank or other financial institution to be a "Wall Street programmer". It is like saying that if a game company took a contract to build a first-person shooter game for the Army that now they are "Government programmers". The world revolving around finance is huge and there are lots of sub-fields and niche areas within it.