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The world needs a proper investigation into how Covid-19 started

economist.com

81–90 of 152 posts

Re: The world needs a proper investigation into how Covid-19 started

#81
post #7

Determining how Covid started would be extremely important imo if there was a chance its release was intentional. But every virologist take I've read suggests that the virus does not look man-made. Nor would it seem that covid's effects and behavior could have possibly been known to any usable degree without the worldwide experiment that we've all been part of the last year and a half. And finally it's really hard to…

If it was an intentional release, obviously that's a completely different class of problem. That would be an act of war against the rest of the world, using a weapon of mass destruction, in addition to the collateral suffering of China's own population. Only very fringe groups are suggesting this was intentionally leaked to begin with. However, there's still the problem of Wuhan air travel lockdown. What possible reason was there not to lock down international travel from Wuhan when they locked down domestic travel, other than to ensure China wouldn't be alone in suffering the fallout? That alone is dangerously close to an act of war, even if the initial release was accidental. Or even if it was completely natural in origin... it really doesn't matter where it came from, that decision alone is a serious problem.

An accidental release is still the host country's responsibility, though. If that's what happened, it's important to understand how it happened to reduce the chance of it ever happening again. Such a conclusion would also lead to international demands for compensation which could put a damper on China's political and economic aspirations.

You have blinders on if "every virologist take [you've] read suggests that the virus does not look man-made." You probably formed this opinion prior to spring 2021. Before that, "trusted" authorities were all declaring that a lab leak was virtually impossible. Things have changed dramatically, with disclosure of some of Fauci's emails and a bunch of virologists now backtracking, saying they're either unsure or think the lab leak hypothesis is more likely.

Email from a virus researcher at Scripps to Fauci, early on (2020/01/31), suggested in a preliminary assessment that small portions (probably the portion of the spike protein everyone's concerned with) look potentially engineered:

https://nypost.com/2021/06/02/fauci-was-warned-that-covid-ma...

wsj and nyt (2021/06): Not specifically by virologists, but two of the more mainstream articles suggest it was a lab leak, and cite evolving opinions of virologists:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/25/opinion/coronavirus-lab.h...

https://archive.is/d9Gaz

Re: The world needs a proper investigation into how Covid-19 started

#82
post #61
post #2

Things like this usually come down to incentives. And right now I don’t see how almost any major power’s leaders have any incentive to push an investigation forwards. We are too dependent on China to piss them off, and so far experience shows we are much more likely to follow their demands than follow our own (Hollywood, NBA, Hong Kong, blizzard, albeit only one of those is geopolitical).

It's important to realize that the world's dependence on China is actually interdependence . People fear what might happen if China suddenly blocked all exports to their country, and rightly so. China is a country where the government wields that kind of totalitarian power. However, this hasn't happened even once yet. The Chinese government knows that, once they play that particular card on one nation, every other na…

i wouldnt too sure about that. Most of the things that china imports have super low ramp up time, so a planned exodus is significantly easier for them.

It's unlikely to happen in the short term but it's entirely possible in a decade or two if nothing significant changes in the meantime.

Re: The world needs a proper investigation into how Covid-19 started

#83
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bill Gates along with Soros the Rothschilds and associated Jews have created a fake global pandemic. The intention is to crash the global economy so they can force everyone into a Socialist, Globalist mono state, flooding our country with immigrants. As part of the fear they have also gotten to finally enact their plan to reduce the world population by sterilizing them with a vaccine that also contains 5g mind-contro…

I think that's an odious and disgusting way to mischaracterize all concerns as nonsense.

If your concern is that COVID is fake and it is a jewish conspiracy to inject dangerous vaccines with 5G mind control chips and you want me to take it seriously; then politely go fuck yourself.

If you have other concerns, happy to hear them, I never suggested anything to the contrary, you read what you wanted to read in my comment, and perhaps touched a raw nerve as it overlaps with your beliefs.

Re: The world needs a proper investigation into how Covid-19 started

#84
post #7

Determining how Covid started would be extremely important imo if there was a chance its release was intentional. But every virologist take I've read suggests that the virus does not look man-made. Nor would it seem that covid's effects and behavior could have possibly been known to any usable degree without the worldwide experiment that we've all been part of the last year and a half. And finally it's really hard to…

If it was an intentional release, obviously that's a completely different class of problem. That would be an act of war against the rest of the world, using a weapon of mass destruction, in addition to the collateral suffering of China's own population. Only very fringe groups are suggesting this was intentionally leaked to begin with. However, there's still the problem of Wuhan air travel lockdown. What possible rea…

Lab leak does not imply "man made" at all. Chinese virology labs are quite far from safe and stuff leaks out all the time. There's a whole lot of circumstantial evidence that this virus came from a bat to begin with and was not created in the lab.

Re: The world needs a proper investigation into how Covid-19 started

#85
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it would be a conspiracy only they conspired to do so. I don't think that's the case with most of them. There are a lot of movements coming from different backgrounds, believing in different things that are meeting at "it's not real, don't get vaccinated". The Bill-Gates-Wants-To-Kill-Us-people aren't conspiring with the Big-Pharma-Wants-A-Perpetual-Vaccine-Business-People, they just happen to come to the same co…

I think you've made a category error. We're not talking about the lost schmucks who've bought into this claptrap - we're talking about whose bright idea it was in the first place, and who's making an effort to spread it. Someone is providing those "alternative theories". You dig around a little and you find dubiously funded websites and media outlets pushing this stuff, as well as the more unsavory elements of media…

>So, who benefits when Americans lose faith in their government?

The public at large if it results in more critical thinking, greater liberty or accountability.

Re: The world needs a proper investigation into how Covid-19 started

#86
post #26

Honestly though, do we? Why? It almost certainly wasn't man made and intentional. That's the only case we really need to know the origin story for, and I don't think anyone serious thinks that is plausible. Otherwise, the worst case is that it was a lab accident of some kind. It'd be fun to point and blame China for it and all, but is it something we really need ?

The problem with the boeing 737 MAX was also not intentional. Unless you would argue we shouldn't investigate that either, why do you make a distinction here?

Boeing has been fined $2.5bn by the US justice department after being charged with fraud and conspiracy in connection with two fatal crashes of its 737 Max airliner.

Sounds like the DOJ found intention in there.

Re: The world needs a proper investigation into how Covid-19 started

#87
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's an odious and disgusting way to mischaracterize all concerns as nonsense.

If your concern is that COVID is fake and it is a jewish conspiracy to inject dangerous vaccines with 5G mind control chips and you want me to take it seriously; then politely go fuck yourself. If you have other concerns, happy to hear them, I never suggested anything to the contrary, you read what you wanted to read in my comment, and perhaps touched a raw nerve as it overlaps with your beliefs.

I've observed this frequently on this site and elsewhere. Dissent is pejoratively associated with flat-earth, antisemitism and other nonsense. As a mainstream narrative, it is an effective way to shut down the discussion. Perhaps some might even call that a disinformation conspiracy.

Re: The world needs a proper investigation into how Covid-19 started

#88
post #26

Honestly though, do we? Why? It almost certainly wasn't man made and intentional. That's the only case we really need to know the origin story for, and I don't think anyone serious thinks that is plausible. Otherwise, the worst case is that it was a lab accident of some kind. It'd be fun to point and blame China for it and all, but is it something we really need ?

Everything you said is not only false, it's deliberately evasive.

There's around a 90% chance it was intentionally modified and escaped one of the WIV labs (mice with humanized lungs were used for testing.) Even the moronic head of WHO, who's a doctor, admitted a couple of months ago that "obviously labs leak."

See my post above for more early details.

There's nothing wrong with blaming China, especially since they've been uncooperative with any investigation, and fed WHO false information until today (the previous WHO visitors to Wuhan were given a report by the CCP to use.) In fact, it's certain they're working on the next corona variant since that's the job of the WIV labs.

Is the problem on HN that only a few people know the timeline and facts, or are you folks wilfully blind? I'm genuinely curious how after 18 months posts like the above are still written.

Re: The world needs a proper investigation into how Covid-19 started

#89
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it would be a conspiracy only they conspired to do so. I don't think that's the case with most of them. There are a lot of movements coming from different backgrounds, believing in different things that are meeting at "it's not real, don't get vaccinated". The Bill-Gates-Wants-To-Kill-Us-people aren't conspiring with the Big-Pharma-Wants-A-Perpetual-Vaccine-Business-People, they just happen to come to the same co…

I think you've made a category error. We're not talking about the lost schmucks who've bought into this claptrap - we're talking about whose bright idea it was in the first place, and who's making an effort to spread it. Someone is providing those "alternative theories". You dig around a little and you find dubiously funded websites and media outlets pushing this stuff, as well as the more unsavory elements of media…

> Someone is providing those "alternative theories".

I'm not sure they are. I mean, sure, for some things, there's likely someone somewhere making it up, but others just come to live by themselves.

A lot of them remind me of the preppers. They also have plenty of scenarios and end up in similar places on practical questions. And companies around that also were created or took up some of the content to market to them. This might be the same here: websites trying to attract these people for other reasons instead of those websites being the source of the ideas.

Since a lot of it is happening online, I guess it should theoretically be/have been visible, do you know of any reports that trace it back to those who created the different conspiracy theories?

Re: The world needs a proper investigation into how Covid-19 started

#90

why does the world need a proper investigation into that? Sometimes it seems to me that it’s just because we want someone to blame. Not because it would actually help anyone.

I’m not a biologist but as I understand, viruses very rarely go from being common in one species to another. It has to do with mutation and how you want many hosts with high viral load to stumble on an effective change.

There are cases where someone close to animals might get it, a farmer typically, but it rarely becomes transmissible between humans — not unless it mutated first and for that it would need to be endemic among farmers. When we observe cases among relatives of the farmers who are not exposed, that’s when we panic. Swine flu and bird flu would fall in that case: there had been many cases among farmers, for decades, and they learned to dismiss them (making cases harder to track). When relatives got sick, epidemiology authorities were suddenly a lot more worried, to the puzzlement of farmers who had been sick prior.

More so, viruses are endemic in bats (who have notoriously poor immunity) but most of them can’t be transmitted to an animal with high immunity, like humans; not without going through mutation and selection through another animal with a more selective immunity, hence the idea of an intermediary host. The pangolin was suggested for a while, if you remember. There was a lot of talk about which animal, but what those stories didn’t really clarify is the “the” in “the pangolin”: whether virologists were expected:

1. widespread infection among pangolins living together; the meaning the species — but then we would have noticed entire groups being sick; or

2. if one single animal was infected by a bat, and someone was unlucky enough to be host to a human-compatible mutation (very unlikely) and then that human was host to another mutation that made it human-to-human-transmissible (also unlikely).

A lot of the early debate on Covid was surprised at how it seemed to have skipped that middle step, or how we couldn’t find it. If you are more familiar with physics, that’s a bit like saying you saw the tunnel effect at the human scale. Sure, we know it’s possible in theory, but… so unlikely, we would probably need to change the science to account for it anyway. Physicists would naturally side with whomever is trying to debunk the observation. That’s how science works: the burden of the proof is on who is making an unlikely claim given current model. The natural history explanation of Covid is possible, but extremely unlikely given “species barrier”.

Once again: I’m not a biologist, but a lot of the scenario that would make that possible would change our approach to epidemiology:

1. if the virus was undetected among humans close to bats for a while, and mutated to become transmissible, we’d need to think of monitoring asymptomatic humans;

2. if the virus was present and undetected in an intermediary species, that’s more likely but still very worrisome and would require significant changes to veterinary practices;

3. if there was a genetic manipulation towards gain of function, the political consequences would be a shit-show but it would preserve our understanding of how frequently and consistently viruses mutate.

In that particular case, the instinct of scientists was split, between people who see the gains-of-function research valuable and those who defend the model — which is why there isn’t a clear view of what “scientists” think. However, don’t let that disagreement confuse you: clarifying what happened will have scientific impact, be it ban a controversial approach, or change our understanding of inter-species viral transmission.

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