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Is catching Covid now better than more vaccine?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Is catching Covid now better than more vaccine?

#71

Post by roland35 »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #57
walterbell wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From Bloomberg today, https://archive.is/fy4Wf > In lieu of answers, what has emerged is a host of case studies providing somewhat different pictures of breakthrough infections. Variables including when the surveys were conducted, whether the delta variant was present, how much of the population was vaccinated and even what the weather was like at the time make it hard to compare results and suss out patterns. It’s d…

"But there is just a lot we don’t know." Well... as a citizen, I should have the right to stay back and watch what happens, and take it when I feel safe, instead of being forced to join the experiment.

You definitely have that right, but at this point the choice isn't vaccine vs no vaccine, it is vaccine vs getting covid. It is much more contagious than it was last year.

Re: Is catching Covid now better than more vaccine?

#72

Post by maxerickson »

pluc wrote: post #53
thysultan wrote: post #26

>Getting a booster shot every few months for the next 10 years is always going to be the best option — Every Vaccine CEO \s

There's a legit conspiracy with this very narrative. We have a handful of companies who have just been showered in public funds in the hopes that they produce something to make themselves irrelevant. It's not hard to believe that they'll lobby for the boosters regardless of the data.

That's a really bad characterization though, the vaccine studies were designed with the participation of government scientists (for sure with Moderna, which was developed in partnership with NIH).

The idea that the corporate scientists are all utterly corrupt and also so much better at science that they can undermine the effectiveness of the vaccines without ruining them completely is nonsensical.

Re: Is catching Covid now better than more vaccine?

#73

Post by karol »

gambiting wrote: post #34
bobthechef wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I have read this also. Big pharma also has an interest in promoting booster shots. It would be a steady flow of revenue. If it causes selective pressures that create new variants, that just means a perpetual market for booster shots.

>>If it causes selective pressures that create new variants Except that it literally doesn't, there is no data to suggest that it would, and I have no idea why this particular idea is repeated so much. Like I said in the comment above, none of the vaccines that we use have ever caused super variants to emerge. Zero. We don't have a super variant of Polio, or any other diseases that people get vaccinated against.

Polio is not a coronavirus. SARS has different mutation rate, so this needs to taken into account. Additionally cats, dogs and other animals can be infected and produce unique mutations, unlike polio.

Re: Is catching Covid now better than more vaccine?

#74

Post by gunapologist99 »

roland35 wrote: post #71
gjsman-1000 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But there is just a lot we don’t know." Well... as a citizen, I should have the right to stay back and watch what happens, and take it when I feel safe, instead of being forced to join the experiment.

You definitely have that right, but at this point the choice isn't vaccine vs no vaccine, it is vaccine vs getting covid. It is much more contagious than it was last year.

Your logic gate is faulty; it sounds like you are concluding that you will definitely get covid if you are not vaccinated, but that still depends on a number of things; people can get deliveries and work out of their home and never get it. It is also demonstrably incorrect that the vaccine is an amulet of proof against covid.

Re: Is catching Covid now better than more vaccine?

#76

Post by walterbell »

bluGill wrote: post #54
walterbell wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current Covid vaccines are non-sterilizing. They reduce symptoms, but cannot guarantee that you will not be infected. This is covered in the article in the discussion of antibodies in the upper respiratory system (obtained from natural infection) vs antibodies in the blood (obtained from vaccination or natural infection). Future nasal vaccines, delivered by inhaler, could potentially provide sterilizing immunity, pre…

The vaccines reduce infection chances greatly, and even if you get it they reduce the time you have it and thus how much time you can spread. Non sterilizating is technically true, but misleading. We are still better off with vaccines and can probable eliminate covid with high enough vaccine rates.

Hopefully upcoming nasal vaccines will be even better, as noted by the UK's SAGE, https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/long-term-evoluti...

> Whilst we feel that current vaccines are excellent for reducing the risk of hospital admission and disease, we propose that research be focused on vaccines that also induce high and durable levels of mucosal immunity in order to reduce infection of and transmission from vaccinated individuals. This could also reduce the possibility of variant selection in vaccinated individuals.

Re: Is catching Covid now better than more vaccine?

#77

Post by hackandtrip »

meheleventyone wrote: post #11

Tangentially related but I’m on day 9 of COVID infection which is easily the longest I’ve been sick in years. I got two shots of Pfizer last one on the 13th of July. If the vaccine has kept this relatively mild then I’m very glad. It sucks. My main symptoms are a stuffed up face, cough, sore throat, aching body and an extremely fuzzy head that seems to come and go. I had a slightly raised temp at the start but otherw…

I had a similar experience, with 10-12 days of mild symptoms (up to 40°C fever), but the general feeling of tiredness and the infamous "brain fog" stayed for 3-4 weeks (it's not completely gone yet).

Definitely one of the worst sickness I've had, but both me and especially my parents (60+) had no respiratory problems and didn't need urgent treatment.

I was waiting for my second dose when I got it and my parents were vaccinated, but still I don't get how we can count on treating it as a flu and just get the virus, considering the lack of knowledge on long-term effects.

Re: Is catching Covid now better than more vaccine?

#78

Post by foobarbaz33 »

XorNot wrote: post #10
timthorn wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question asked by the article is sensible. The uncertainty explored is whether, having had an initial vaccination, future natural infection would produce a better defence against variants than booster shots that target the spike protein alone.

Which is irrelevant: the booster vaccines are to provide sustained protection against the variants we have now and reduce the risk of serious complications. There is no situation in which it is a good idea to be infected with a virus rather then vaccinated against it, and comments on provided immunity from infection are irrelevant: you either become immune to what infected you or it kills you.

For sake of discussion assume all infections are accidental, and everyone follows anti-infection protocols to the letter.

Here are a few (but not all) states someone can be in.

    A. vaccinated

    B. vaccinated -> natural infection -> recovered

    C. vaccinated -> booster

    D. vaccinated -> booster -> natural infection -> recovered
Let's assume it was proven state D has the best efficiency against covid variants. Option D includes the booster. So boosters would always be a good idea.

But even if boosters are a good idea in all cases, it is worth studying whether people in state B or C have better efficiency against covid variants. Gaining knowledge is good. It may (or may not) be a fact that state B has superior efficiency to state C.

Re: Is catching Covid now better than more vaccine?

#79

Post by rvp-x »

Rezwoodly wrote: post #28
meheleventyone wrote: post #11

Tangentially related but I’m on day 9 of COVID infection which is easily the longest I’ve been sick in years. I got two shots of Pfizer last one on the 13th of July. If the vaccine has kept this relatively mild then I’m very glad. It sucks. My main symptoms are a stuffed up face, cough, sore throat, aching body and an extremely fuzzy head that seems to come and go. I had a slightly raised temp at the start but otherw…

Uh, you did get vaccinated and still have these symptoms. You could also fairly end your TLDR with 'did get vaccinated, this sucks'. It seems we are still learning about the efficacy of the vaccines, and the nature of the virus. From this pov I understand why some are hesitant to be vaccinated in this phase of the pandemic

We have mountains of data about the current vaccine. This amount of disease-tracking is unheard of. Almost any institution in the world has regular discussions about this singular disease. Governments spend huge resources to pinpoint the exact minimum measures that can control the spread enough.

My country attempted a 3rd dose, and within 2 weeks they were already reporting data on reduced risk of catching the virus in comparison to 2, 1, and 0 doses. These are studies done with sample sizes of millions of people.

Re: Is catching Covid now better than more vaccine?

#80

Post by bluejekyll »

Rezwoodly wrote: post #28
meheleventyone wrote: post #11

Tangentially related but I’m on day 9 of COVID infection which is easily the longest I’ve been sick in years. I got two shots of Pfizer last one on the 13th of July. If the vaccine has kept this relatively mild then I’m very glad. It sucks. My main symptoms are a stuffed up face, cough, sore throat, aching body and an extremely fuzzy head that seems to come and go. I had a slightly raised temp at the start but otherw…

Uh, you did get vaccinated and still have these symptoms. You could also fairly end your TLDR with 'did get vaccinated, this sucks'. It seems we are still learning about the efficacy of the vaccines, and the nature of the virus. From this pov I understand why some are hesitant to be vaccinated in this phase of the pandemic

Given the timelines mentioned, vaccinated in mid July, got sick mid August, it looks like the peak effectiveness of the Pfizer vaccine after the second shot take 15-21 days to kick in. The virus can take up to 12 days before becoming sick/symptomatic. Rough math: (Aug 21) - (9 days sick) - (12 day incubation) = (~July 31 infection date). This would appear to fall in the time period of not yet being fully inoculated, if they were unlucky with the timelines.

They got unlucky, which sucks. I wish the best for the GP, but the important thing is that this anecdote doesn’t necessarily represent a breakthrough case. But even if it did, the Pfizer vaccine is 96% effective at protecting people, so 4% are still going to get sick. All of this is inline with all the data I’ve seen at least. For this particular case we don’t even need to discuss the recent data showing Pfizer (and possibly Moderna) dropping to 80ish% effectiveness after four-five months.

Literally all the data says people are safer getting vaccinated.

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