Live data from Hacker News

Researchers Expose Cunning Online Tracking Service That Can’t Be Dodged

wired.com

111–120 of 151 posts

Re: Researchers Expose Cunning Online Tracking Service That Can’t Be Dodged

#111
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hazza for adblock, as much as i like to see the legislature and courts support privacy this is fundamentally a technological problem.

I disagree. This is a Whack-A-Mole game, and that means a societal solution is required. Compare with spam. Technological solutions have reduced the problem, but to virtually eliminate it requires global law enforcement.

Any evidence that law enforcement could virtually eliminate spam?

Re: Researchers Expose Cunning Online Tracking Service That Can’t Be Dodged

#112

I usually use Firefox with it set to forget everything on exit, along with the Noscript plugin. Does anyone know if this tracking service would work on a FF user running Noscript? By the way, using Noscript has made me aware of something that I didn't previously know: many sites call Javascript from lots of other domains. I've seen websites with as many as 18 other domains listed on the Noscript pull down menu. And I…

You might want to remove all caching. Though deleting cache on exit will disrupt tracking if you exit often.

The etag mechanism will return each user a different etag for a piece of content, so the browser will send an etag changed request with that etag in. This will be stored with the browser cache.

Re: Researchers Expose Cunning Online Tracking Service That Can’t Be Dodged

#113
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sites like Hulu and Spotify predominately use web analytics to gauge their audience in order to sell advertising, not to make their sites better. That may be a by-product, but that's not driving their analytics usage. Additionally, cross-site tracking isn't used for feature/usage tracking. It's used for highly targeted advertising. My point was the "shattering advantages" are really advantages for advertisers, not we…

Spotify has perhaps the least targeted ads i've ever seen/heard on any media source. We listen to indie rock and classics all day only to hear the latest Jason Derulo clip several times a day as an advertisement. That's clearly not targeted in any way. There is 0% chance we will do anything but hate the song as a result of this ad. None of the ads are in any way relevant or appear to be targeted by anything more accu…

Spotify dont sell enough ads to make targetting feasible. They play you all their inventory. Until you buy a subscription because it is too annoying...

Re: Researchers Expose Cunning Online Tracking Service That Can’t Be Dodged

#114
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's Firewall iP for jailbroken iPhones. Also one can install other browsers than Safari from the Appstore and, for example, iCab Mobile has the ability to use filters (and comes with some).

Mobile devices != iPhone+Android. I find this trend pretty disturbing.

I didn't even mention Android. I just gave an example of what's possible on one type of mobile device.

Re: Researchers Expose Cunning Online Tracking Service That Can’t Be Dodged

#115
post #7

is there any indication on where the data is stored?

Yes, but not easily seen unless you have a tool like FireBug to see. It works by setting a unique cache tag (etag as in screenshot) for each user of a resource such as HTML, JPG, GIF, etc files. The later requests can then be extrapolated of what the user views per site. It's in effect, a cookie. I think it's quite brilliant as an alternative to cookies but unfortunately I can't use it as a form of cookies as they ar…

Etags are an http standard.

Re: Researchers Expose Cunning Online Tracking Service That Can’t Be Dodged

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. This is a Whack-A-Mole game, and that means a societal solution is required. Compare with spam. Technological solutions have reduced the problem, but to virtually eliminate it requires global law enforcement.

Any evidence that law enforcement could virtually eliminate spam?

Severe dents have been put in spam production when specific individual senders were shut down.

Re: Researchers Expose Cunning Online Tracking Service That Can’t Be Dodged

#117
post #39
post #38

Jeez guys, not all tracking is evil. You know all that awesome content that exists on the web? Well the people that make and distribute that content need information to make your experience better. Let's say you start a new site. Let's use 8tracks for example: they provide a two-tiered service, one free and premium. The free service exists to drive you to a paid account, but you still derive value from it, nonetheles…

>not all tracking is evil. Tracking isn't evil. Tracking people who specifically do not want to be tracked is evil.

that is true. they knew that some users block all third party cookies and they still wanted to track them, hence using Etag

Re: Researchers Expose Cunning Online Tracking Service That Can’t Be Dodged

#118
post #87
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Give me a break. This isn't evil marketers hiding in their underground lair. This is web developers, designers, and product managers gaining insight about their users. They don't package this information and sell it wholesale to advertisers. They use it to make the product better . You are taking this -way- too seriously. The ability to have perfect information on how users interact with your product is one the earth…

Bullshit. If it was used to improve a product, they wouldn't use a tracking method that tracks me between sites. They can track what I do on their site, but if I'm going from goat-sucking-maggot.com to hulu.com, then Hulu has no business knowing that and knowing that doesn't improve their damn product. This is entirely just an attempt to get competitive analysis about their competitors at the expense of user privacy.

It's not competitor analysis, necessarily. I think rather they are trying to find out where users came to their site from so they can more accurately attribute the site that directed them, and thus throw more money at sites that do a good job of referring you to them, as opposed to just using "last click attribution". It's about them finding out how to best use their advertising budget.

Re: Researchers Expose Cunning Online Tracking Service That Can’t Be Dodged

#119
This has been known about for years, and was a concern on various mailing lists years ago. The solution at the time was said to be that browser vendors will build in tools for cache control in the same way they have for cookie controls.

The first sites to exploit this were, as always, porn sites. They used Etags in referral tracking to avoid webmaster fraud. (the webmaster would have to include a script from the affiliate co which would set an Etag).

You know what is more interesting? The Last-Modified header. The HTTP spec says that you are supposed to put a date in there, but it also says not to bother parsing the date if you are a client since date parsing is such a pain in the ass. So clients just copy the date string and store it and then replay it subsequent requests.

you can put whatever the hell you want in a last-modified field and all browsers will just store it and then replay it later in subsequent requests to the same resource. for eg.

initial request:

  GET /_modified_test HTTP/1.1
  Accept: text/html,application/xhtml+xml,application/xml;q=0.9,*/*;q=0.8
  Accept-Charset: ISO-8859-1,utf-8;q=0.7,*;q=0.3
  Accept-Encoding: gzip,deflate,sdch
  Accept-Language: en-US,en;q=0.8
  Cache-Control: max-age=0
  Connection: keep-alive
  Host: localhost:8888
  User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10_6_6) AppleWebKit/535.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/14.0.830.0 Safari/535.1
initial server response from my dev server (note Last-Modified header used):

  HTTP/1.0 200 OK
  Server: Dev/1.0
  Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 11:48:25 GMT
  content-type: text/html; charset=utf8
  Last-Modified: random_token_i_set
  Cache-Control: no-cache
  Expires: Fri, 01 Jan 1990 00:00:00 GMT
  Content-Length: 1634
subsequent browser request to the same resource:

  GET /_modified_test HTTP/1.1
  Host: localhost:8888
  Connection: keep-alive
  Cache-Control: max-age=0
  User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10_6_6) AppleWebKit/535.1 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/14.0.830.0 Safari/535.1
  Accept: text/html,application/xhtml+xml,application/xml;q=0.9,*/*;q=0.8
  Accept-Encoding: gzip,deflate,sdch
  Accept-Language: en-US,en;q=0.8
  Accept-Charset: ISO-8859-1,utf-8;q=0.7,*;q=0.3
  If-Modified-Since: random_token_i_set
with new webapps now being single-page with either hashchange or pushstate support, it means almost all requests are made on the backend to the same resource, so you can track the user across all pages on the entire site and across other sites.

concerning, but a known problem. even with these headers patched there is still a lot of information that can be used to fingerprint clients (ie. having everything switched off is still a fingerprint that makes you unique). I don't think chrome, safari, IE or Firefox will ever implement these advanced features, it will be up to somebody else to release a browser that is more privacy aware or to maintain a plugin that is.

I wrote a plugin that does this, but a lot of information still leaks through (it is in my github but I haven't released/announced it in any way). I am contemplating just forking webkit and doing a whole separate 'privacy aware' browser but haven't found the time. in short, the browser makers know about this, and have known about it for years - there is just no real interest in providing user tools to fully anonymize users.

Edit: if anybody is interested in the plugin it is here: https://github.com/nikcub/Parley

it blocks all third party requests and provides other features. it works, just needs a bit of a clean up and release.

Re: Researchers Expose Cunning Online Tracking Service That Can’t Be Dodged

#120
Analytics is here to stay. Unless this practice is regulated (which in turn can end up being heavy handed and far reaching and in turn could discourage innovation) analytics will remain a big piece of what IT will focus on, mainly in getting a 360 degree view of their customers.

Instead of regulating everytime we see a practice that we may not agree on, how about we treat it like when the "iPhone location" fiasco broke. Do not criminalize the possession of customer data or even tracking, criminalize distribution or malicious use of it. If Company A wants to know where I came from, so that they can share their ad dollars effectively, I am ok with it. But do ensure that they dont share it with other companies in that network (whether Kissmetrics or someone else) for any reason. My online identity remains my own, it does not need to be dissected for further analysis by doubleclick, kissmetrics et al.

Post reply on HN