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The mutation that helps Delta spread

nature.com

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Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#311

Post by singingfish »

undersuit wrote: post #303
phkahler wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't long Covid caused by damage from the spike proteins? In that case, repeatedly giving people the vaccine might do damage as well since it gets you to produce those spike proteins right?

The spike proteins allow Covid to enter your cell where its actual RNA coopts the cellular machinery of the cell to reproduce. After enough copies of the virus are assembled the RNA coopted cell is made to kill itself by self-lysis releasing the new viruses. The spike protein itself is not dangerous.

I think it kind of is because it's got a similar binding affinity to heparin. Heparin is a first responder chemical in the immune system. Coopting a low level part of the immune system like that is rather more dangerous than if it were getting entry via some other mechanism. On the other hand I could be wrong about this.

Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#312

Post by munk-a »

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #94
hncurious wrote: post #70

Covid is going to be endemic like the flu and cold. It's not going to be eradicated, unfortunately, and I don't think we've come to terms with this yet. Now what's our plan exactly? Get vaccinated every 6 - 12 months indefinitely and always wear masks? What's our goal and what's our new normal?

Due to COVID not mutating as quickly, I think the end game is everyone getting immune, through a combination of repeated vaccinations and infections.

I am becoming more skeptical of that outcome unless we can kill it dead globally. It seems probable to me that this is going to go on in perpetuity like a much more deadly seasonal flu.

Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#313

Post by undersuit »

tunesmith wrote: post #300
jmfldn wrote: post #151

Purely anecdotal but I'm double vaccinated (Astra Zeneca) and I caught Covid recently. It was probably Delta as 99% of cases in UK are. I know of quite a few vaccinated friends who've caught it recently too. Mainly AZ I think but one was Pfizer (single jabbed). Anyway, none of us had severe illness although I felt pretty rough for a few days like I had a really bad cold and smell went for a week completely. I was bas…

"Selective pressure". I find this phrase really confusing, because I think people use it differently. I'm still trying to nail down my own knowledge about this, but here's the gist I have so far. Viruses are not like bacteria. Bacteria can mutate in direct response to antibiotics. Viruses cannot mutate in direct response to vaccines. Some people use "selection pressure" to describe what happens with bacteria and anti…

>Bacteria can mutate in direct response to antibiotics. Viruses cannot mutate in direct response to vaccines.

What do you mean by this? Are you a Lamarckian?

Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#314

Post by jimmaswell »

bingohbangoh wrote: post #272
jmfldn wrote: post #151

Purely anecdotal but I'm double vaccinated (Astra Zeneca) and I caught Covid recently. It was probably Delta as 99% of cases in UK are. I know of quite a few vaccinated friends who've caught it recently too. Mainly AZ I think but one was Pfizer (single jabbed). Anyway, none of us had severe illness although I felt pretty rough for a few days like I had a really bad cold and smell went for a week completely. I was bas…

How long do you think we'll be keeping up the mask wearing given that "more variants are inevitably coming?"

It has to end at some point, and for me and most other people where I live in the US, it mostly has.

Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#315

Post by munk-a »

schmichael wrote: post #155
ldjkfkdsjnv wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got covid last march, and got it again one month ago. I was very sick for three weeks on my second covid infection. I think we are about to face the harsh reality that covid is never going away, and immunity and is never going to happen. The virus will mutate and find new ways to infect

> I think we are about to face... I feel like this is what most experts were saying from near the beginning: this is not a few months problem. This is an ongoing problem that will require us to adapt just as it adapts. I remember many articles in 2020 projecting what the virus might look like 5 or 8 years out. Lockdowns and other extreme measures were about flattening infection curves to keep from overwhelming health…

> this is not a few months problem

I agree that it was never a few months problem - but I think we had a window to stamp it out and low vaccination production and adoption rates have killed that window dead. I don't believe it's impossible that we beat this - but I would not be surprised if mutation rates simply outrun vaccination adaptation.

Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#316

Post by walterbell »

munk-a wrote: post #310
walterbell wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should already-immune, recovered people be vaccinated?

Vaccination has shown better health outcomes even in already infected persons[1] - getting both is the best protection and there is no rational reason to refuse the vaccine. 1. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2782139

It is still very early in vaccine trials. There are anecdotal reports of an increase in non-Covid health problems (e.g. reactivation of dormant infections that had previously been suppressed by the immune system) in those who had already recovered from Covid, then got vaccinated. That's separate from the tens of thousands of reports in VAERS and non-public (HMO) adverse event reporting systems for all Covid-vaccinated people, whether or not they were previously recovered.

Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#317

Post by robertoandred »

tux1968 wrote: post #262
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So here in Ontario where we're @ about 65% of the population totally vaccinated, today's new cases. Source: https://data.ontario.ca/dataset/covid-19-vaccine-data-in-ont... 10.25/100k among people who are unvaccinated. 6.5/100k among people who are partially vaccinated. 1.0/100k among people who are fully vaccinated. For hospitalization: 2.04/100k for unvaccinated, 1.11/100k for partially, 0.21/100k for vaccinated. Fo…

> The disease is spreading primarily among the unvaccinated. What is the evidence for this? Vaccinated people are capable of spreading the disease just as easily as those who aren't. And since they're much more likely to be asymptomatic, may be more likely to spread the disease unknowingly. Those without the vaccination are more likely to end up in hospital, but that says nothing about how the disease is actually bei…

The vaccinated may be just as capable of spreading covid, but they’re less likely to be infected in the first place.

Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#318

Post by tunesmith »

undersuit wrote: post #313
tunesmith wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Selective pressure". I find this phrase really confusing, because I think people use it differently. I'm still trying to nail down my own knowledge about this, but here's the gist I have so far. Viruses are not like bacteria. Bacteria can mutate in direct response to antibiotics. Viruses cannot mutate in direct response to vaccines. Some people use "selection pressure" to describe what happens with bacteria and anti…

>Bacteria can mutate in direct response to antibiotics. Viruses cannot mutate in direct response to vaccines. What do you mean by this? Are you a Lamarckian?

I don't know what that is. Put a bacteria and an antibiotic in a petri dish, and the bacteria can evolve in a way that has greater antibiotic resistance. Put a vaccine in a petri dish with a virus, and nothing happens. Bacteria are living organisms. Viruses are not.

Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#319

Post by munk-a »

TurkishPoptart wrote: post #248
kaoD wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I just dont see how getting a shot every year or six months for eternity is a viable solution What do you mean? We have yearly flu vaccinations.

Yes, but flu shots are entirely voluntary. Meanwhile, there's legislation being considered in the U.S. to put people on Do Not Fly lists for not showing proof of being "fully" vaccinated. And who knows how far the goalposts can move when it comes to what "fully" vaccinated means. Next year, that might mean having had 4 shots, or more.

In the 1970s the US required MMR shots for attendance in public schools and the disease quickly tapered off - we've done this before and, so long as the vaccinations aren't inducing a financial burden on individuals that are unable to afford it - I see no issue with requiring vaccination if you want to share a close space with others. A lot of potential partners will reject you if you're unable to provide negative STD results - this isn't all that different.

Oh also - a small pedantic correction. There is a formal thing in the US called the No Fly List and I've heard absolutely nothing about putting people onto it for not getting vaccinated - there has been discussion to restrict your ability to fly if you're unvaccinated though which... would be easy to fix (unlike getting off the No Fly List) by simply getting the shot.

Re: The mutation that helps Delta spread

#320

Post by bingohbangoh »

jimmaswell wrote: post #314
bingohbangoh wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How long do you think we'll be keeping up the mask wearing given that "more variants are inevitably coming?"

It has to end at some point, and for me and most other people where I live in the US, it mostly has.

I thought the same last summer.

It's always "almost over" yet there's chatter of Lockdown 3.0 here in the tristate area.

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