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Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

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Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#101

Post by halostatue »

wutbrodo wrote: post #52
werber wrote: post #9

After seeing all these posts here and not hearing much about it outside of this space I’m starting to think that the cost benefit analysis that Apple did was that the profit from very likely convincing parents to spend a little more to get their children an iPhone as their first phone (and probably lock those children into their ecosystem) because of these features was greater than the amount of users who would switc…

> convincing parents to spend a little more to get their children an iPhone as their first phone What do you mean here: I don't think makes things any safer for child _users_ of iPhones, does it? It's scanning for images of child sexual abuse. (To anyone inclined to respond without reading the context, I'm not suggesting that there's no privacy concern if you're not sharing CP. I'm addressing OP's hypothetical that s…

There are two main features that cause concern. The one that has been getting the most attention and noise is the CSAM scanning. That only happens on upload of images to iCloud Photos (currently only in the US). No automatic notification of any law enforcement agency is done, and there is a threshold requirement before Apple reviews the account and then submits a report.

The second feature is iMessage specific. Parents have to enable this on their account on behalf of their children, and it only applies to minors (_probably_ just children under 13, possibly older; I am not clear on that). This looks for (mostly outbound?) messages going to the child's phone for “unsafe” images (e.g., nudity). If those messages are found, _the parent_ is notified. No one else.

I have _more_ concerns about the second feature as it is likely to be abused by controlling parents and is more likely to negatively impact children who are questioning their gender or sexuality. But this is _explicitly_ a feature to protect kids from sharing sexual images of themselves.

Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#102

Post by halostatue »

UncleMeat wrote: post #48
VortexDream wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, this is deeply concerning. Apple shouldn't be in a position to be able to police what photos we take. If I'm a teen and I sext with a partner, does that mean that in the near future, our messages/photos will be flagged and reviewed for "child porn" and forwarded to police enforcement? That's horrifying and incredibly unfair to young people exploring their sexuality in a completely consensual and normal way.…

> If I'm a teen and I sext with a partner, does that mean that in the near future, our messages/photos will be flagged and reviewed for "child porn" and forwarded to police enforcement? No. The system looks for files that are similar to known illegal content. It is not a general purpose underage nude photograph detector.

That's the other feature.

Feature 1: CSAM detection. Only on upload of images to iCloud Photos.

Feature 2: nudity detection for minor children controlled via the parents' iCloud account. It is not an “underage” nude photograph detector, but a nude photograph detector. All done on-device. The only person(s) notified are THE PARENTS. This is all opt-in and age-restricted. I do not know whether it will affect teens sexting or only under-13s.

Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#103

Post by josteink »

UncleMeat wrote: post #45
coconut_man wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so, it doesn't really need to "analyze" your messages to do preview urls, show videos... Those are more like frontend stuff IMO

But people are mad precisely because the CSAM scanning is being done as "frontend stuff".

And then automatically reported to some backend, which reports to the police.

That’s a wee bit different from showing YouTube previews imo.

Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#104

Post by josteink »

tpush wrote: post #75
whydoineedthis wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it reports those links back to big brother though. Keen difference.

I doesn't do that with sexually explicit images on iMessage either.

And how will you know?

Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#105

Post by BTCOG »

joshstrange wrote: post #11
kemayo wrote: post #10

I want to ignore most of this article to complain about an inaccuracy that keeps coming up. > More broadly, they said the change will break end-to-end encryption for iMessage, which Apple has staunchly defended in other contexts. But... it wouldn't. The iMessage feature doesn't expose the contents of your message to anyone else under any circumstance. If you're a child under 13 and your parents have opted in to this…

Let's also not pretend that some of this confusion done is 100% willfully by some of the news organizations reporting on this because it benefits them to conflate the two. We even see it a little from places like EFF who appear to believe their ends justify the means.

Division and confusion, and mixing of terms are direct strings of state and corporate control.

Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#106

Post by halostatue »

harles wrote: post #93
rootusrootus wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this feature has nothing to do with iMessage. Y'all are starting to make me more sympathetic to Apple. Their biggest misstep was making these announcements simultaneously without foreseeing how many people would (willingly or otherwise) conflate them.

iMessage data is getting scanned with a broader set of heuristics than iCloud data, while it’s supposed to have air tight privacy.

This is not true. There were multiple features announced. iMessage data is not being scanned by most phones. The ONLY CSAM detection that happens is on photos being uploaded to iCloud Photos.

The only phones where iMessage photo scanning happens are those for children under a certain age (maybe 13?) whose parents who have opted into child protection where the phone scans for nude photos and notifies the parents.

People are conflating these two _different_ but _related_ features and their goals and limits.

Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#107

Post by djrogers »

sigmar wrote: post #15
djrogers wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it not still E2EE?

If a copy of your messages (even if it is only low resolution jpgs) get auto forwarded to Apple/FBI under certain circumstances it is not securely E2E encrypted

That's not what happens with the iMessage feature - that's what happens with the iCloud photo library CSAM scanning feature, and iCloud photo library has never been E2EE.

Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#108

Post by djrogers »

sigmar wrote: post #73
aj3 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not forwarded to Apple/FBI though, under any circumstances.

the 'visual derivative' of photos on your device are sent to apple

No, they aren't. You're conflating two completely separate features, and this thread is specifically about the iMessage one.

I'd suggest you read up a bit on this - https://www.apple.com/child-safety/

What we're discussing is this feature:

"The Messages app will add new tools to warn children and their parents when receiving or sending sexually explicit photos.

When receiving this type of content, the photo will be blurred and the child will be warned, presented with helpful resources, and reassured it is okay if they do not want to view this photo. As an additional precaution, the child can also be told that, to make sure they are safe, their parents will get a message if they do view it. Similar protections are available if a child attempts to send sexually explicit photos. The child will be warned before the photo is sent, and the parents can receive a message if the child chooses to send it.

Messages uses on-device machine learning to analyze image attachments and determine if a photo is sexually explicit. The feature is designed so that Apple does not get access to the messages."

There are no visual derivatives, no neural hashes, and nothing is sent to apple.

Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#109

Post by djrogers »

238475235243 wrote: post #16
djrogers wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it not still E2EE?

Maybe it's the expandable back door reporting mechanism that Apple wants to put in there?

That's not related to iMessage - that's an iCloud photo library thing. iCloud photo library has never been E2EE.

Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#110

Post by npteljes »

robertoandred wrote: post #13
bobbob1921 wrote: post #4

Pretty clear cut for me: iMessage either offers robust end-to-end encryption , or it doesn’t. (Intentional backdoors place it in the latter ofcourse). I want true end to end enc.

iMessage already analyzes your messages to preview urls, show YouTube videos, highlight dates, etc. Are those also backdoors?

How do they manage the previews? Skype, for one, uses their servers to get the preview. Vastly different from a client-side preview (which some people wouldn't want either).
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