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Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

aljazeera.com

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Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#61
post #10

I want to ignore most of this article to complain about an inaccuracy that keeps coming up. > More broadly, they said the change will break end-to-end encryption for iMessage, which Apple has staunchly defended in other contexts. But... it wouldn't. The iMessage feature doesn't expose the contents of your message to anyone else under any circumstance. If you're a child under 13 and your parents have opted in to this…

Let's also not pretend that some of this confusion done is 100% willfully by some of the news organizations reporting on this because it benefits them to conflate the two. We even see it a little from places like EFF who appear to believe their ends justify the means.

Honestly, I’m starting to think that this is deliberate attack by opponents of e2ee that want to prevent iCloud going dark (right now Apple holds the keys just like every other cloud storage provider but after implementing these CSAM features they could transition to true e2ee).

Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I want true end to end enc. People who say things like this rarely also want the hassle that comes with it. Key exchanges, re-keying: all a big PITA. But iMessage (and WhatsApp) do key exchanges facilitated by a trusted broker. If you didn't trust the broker, you would have to do more work when making an initial exchange with a peer and more work if they lost their phone/keys. iMessage has always been a compromise…

Key exchange would be easy in real life, just bump phones when you meet someone. It's only difficult on IRC.

So key signing parties would resurface? :)

Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#63
post #10

I want to ignore most of this article to complain about an inaccuracy that keeps coming up. > More broadly, they said the change will break end-to-end encryption for iMessage, which Apple has staunchly defended in other contexts. But... it wouldn't. The iMessage feature doesn't expose the contents of your message to anyone else under any circumstance. If you're a child under 13 and your parents have opted in to this…

> Apple really screwed up PR by launching the iMessage feature alongside the scanning-and-reporting iCloud Photos feature. There's so much confusion out there about this.

It's possible that they determined that dealing with the backlash in one go would be easier than having two separate blowups. Most consumers have only fuzzy, vague senses of brands based on a poorly-understood game of Telephone linked to each news cycle. This only counts as "one" privacy ding against Apple for most people, whereas two separate news cycles would do much more damage to their reputation around privacy.

Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#64

Im not sure if im missing something here, but from what I understand, what Apple is proposing is an enormous privacy boon that seems to be completely misunderstood. All cloud providers are required to, and do, make these scans. The proposal provides a way for them to comply with that requirement, but at the same time, allows them to completely lock themselves out of being able to decrypt your data in the cloud, excep…

- I don't want to be treated like a pedophile for a device that I should, in theory, own because I paid for it.

- I don't want the rules to change in the future for what will be scanned.

- I don't want to support Apple scanning for pictures of Tank Man for the CCP.

- I don't want an untested proprietary algorithm making decisions about me that could alter my life. It's already been shown that you can make innocent pictures that collide with CP hashes. This screams of future abuse.

Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#65
post #59
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concern is that Apple is handing governments a new tool to go “give me a list of all users that have this photo”. It could track down dissidents based on this and combined with metadata is probably sufficient to pinpoint who took a particular picture. Think you shared that picture of police brutality anonymously? Think again.

Apple can already decrypt your iCloud photos, same with google etc. I don’t get this argument as they can already do that.

iCloud != iMessage

Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so, it doesn't really need to "analyze" your messages to do preview urls, show videos... Those are more like frontend stuff IMO

No more frontend than running a basic subject recognition on a photo.

I don't think it reports those links back to big brother though. Keen difference.

Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#67

Im not sure if im missing something here, but from what I understand, what Apple is proposing is an enormous privacy boon that seems to be completely misunderstood. All cloud providers are required to, and do, make these scans. The proposal provides a way for them to comply with that requirement, but at the same time, allows them to completely lock themselves out of being able to decrypt your data in the cloud, excep…

> The proposal provides a way for them to comply with that requirement, but at the same time, allows them to completely lock themselves out of being able to decrypt your data in the cloud, except in this specific case, secured and controlled by your device.

If the CSAM detection were released with encrypted iCloud backups (or generally E2EE iCloud), then I think I'd probably be entirely less outraged. This narrative would make sense then.

Apple claims the on-device CSAM scanning only occurs on device if the photo in question is uploaded to iCloud. Apple is surely already scanning iCloud photos on their cloud, so without E2EE to iCloud, what's the point?

My ability to control a device I own, with Apple, was already suspect. Apple's use of on-device scanning is a slippery slope: it's not a question of if it will be used for nefarious means, but when. The claim that the scanning is only done for cloud-destination images is suspect and could be changed by gagged government coercion and a minor update.

The feature itself has little going for it in efficacy too: like most of the US's punishment bureaucracy / legal system / policing. Real child predators likely already avoid the cloud. These kind of slippery slope arguments against crime are often used by law enforcement to erode privacy rights: they don't actually catch more bad guys, but they do spy on more law abiding citizens.

Who's to say that in the future, law enforcement won't use this kind of technology for the war on drugs or other failed law enforcement initiatives? Law enforcement often uses violence or terrorism, for example, as justification for its own expansion and more privacy-invading initiatives, but terrorism is a very low threat, and only 4% of crimes in the US are violent (as defined by the FBI). CSAM has been used for decades as justification for the state to nose more in private citizens' business too. It's certainly an issue, but there have to be better ways to reduce child harm.

Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#68

So, what parts of my phone are actually being scanned by this system? It seems like it's rummaging through any images that are touch iCloud, which would include: - iMessage - WhatsApp - Camera - Matrix (?) - Any other application that you give 'photo' permission to?

Photos in Photos.app will get scanned if you have iCloud enabled (required to download the CSAM hash database).

Messages will be scanned for CSAM content if you are a child, then parents will get notified that they received a dickpick.

Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I want true end to end enc. People who say things like this rarely also want the hassle that comes with it. Key exchanges, re-keying: all a big PITA. But iMessage (and WhatsApp) do key exchanges facilitated by a trusted broker. If you didn't trust the broker, you would have to do more work when making an initial exchange with a peer and more work if they lost their phone/keys. iMessage has always been a compromise…

Key exchange would be easy in real life, just bump phones when you meet someone. It's only difficult on IRC.

Yes and no. It's not 'hard' it's just friction that's not present at baseline (when iMessage was designed, and for the most part still today). Sometimes you send messages to someone who you haven't ever met in person, or you met but didn't think to exchange keys at the time. And when Dave drops his phone in the lake and buys a new one, he would have to sheepishly re-meetup with everyone he interacts with.

If iMessage had been designed to require a brokerless key exchange, its security would be superior (though in this case, Apple's interception software trumps everything). But iMessage would appear to be less convenient than alternatives like WhatsApp (brokered key exchange, re-keying).

Re: Apple urged to drop plans to scan iMessages, images for sex abuse

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could comply with a nation state's demands to scan a billion iPhones for a politically dangerous photo.

You'd need 30 of them. And upload them iCloud. I guess the neural part is a bit of a blackbox, im not sure if theres a way for external parties to verify its legitimatcy. But again, any change to would go noticed.

You wouldn't need 30 of them or to upload them to iCloud.

If a nation state can demand Apple uses their existing function to scan your phone for political images, then they can likewise demand that 1 hit would be enough, and that there's no requirement for it to be uploaded to iCloud before the scanning can start.

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