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First town in America to ban new gas stations

theguardian.com

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Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#111

Post by emodendroket »

bradlys wrote: post #107
emodendroket wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's really sidestepping the issue, isn't it? It's not just about respect and freedom. It's about the externalities created by many people living in large homes.

The externalities don’t come from living in large homes. They come from the use of non-renewable resources. Focus on that dude. Stop trying to make everyone live in an SRO. You can easily give everyone a McMansion and live in some sub 1.5C utopia as long as we focus on where we get our energy and resources from. Stop focusing on consumption quantity because it just sounds like envy.

Come on, "you're just jealous" is the best argument you can come up with? You'd be closer to home if you called me a hypocrite but these are just ways to sidestep the question at hand by attacking me personally. Heat pumps are much more efficient, let's grant, but there's no answer with zero waste heat. I think there's a real question whether, no matter how much everything's electrified, a model where everyone rides a single-occupant car nearly everywhere they go is really sustainable.

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#112

Post by bradlys »

emodendroket wrote: post #111
bradlys wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The externalities don’t come from living in large homes. They come from the use of non-renewable resources. Focus on that dude. Stop trying to make everyone live in an SRO. You can easily give everyone a McMansion and live in some sub 1.5C utopia as long as we focus on where we get our energy and resources from. Stop focusing on consumption quantity because it just sounds like envy.

Come on, "you're just jealous" is the best argument you can come up with? You'd be closer to home if you called me a hypocrite but these are just ways to sidestep the question at hand by attacking me personally. Heat pumps are much more efficient, let's grant, but there's no answer with zero waste heat. I think there's a real question whether, no matter how much everything's electrified, a model where everyone rides…

I never said you were jealous. I said you sound like you're envious. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPhrTOg1RUk - maybe watch this (it is quite enjoyable!) and it could change your mind about how you think of envy.

Heat pumps just move heat around... They do not create heat. If they did - we'd have some violations of laws. All they're doing is going to transfer geothermal, solar, wind, etc. power into heat transfer - which is transferring heat from outdoors into your home... Which then goes back outdoors at some point. There isn't any "heat" creation here.

What model are you speaking of where they claim electric cars are not viable for the future? (Assuming renewable energy sources and sustainable use of natural resources, etc.)

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#113

Post by AnimalMuppet »

jeffbee wrote: post #22
nivenkos wrote: post #2

We all know that to combat climate change sacrifices will need to be made like fewer cars and smaller houses (for compact, accessible cities). I can't see the US ever being willing to make these sacrifices though. If you compare the $/sqft for housing in the US vs. Europe the difference is shocking (even in big cities like Seattle vs. London), same for gasoline prices, etc. The US has become accustomed to unparallele…

American houses are absolute shite. Americans think they have nice houses because Americans are the least-informed people history has ever known.

> Americans are the least-informed people history has ever known.

That is coming very close to personal attack, which is against the site guidelines.

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#114

Post by emodendroket »

bradlys wrote: post #112
emodendroket wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on, "you're just jealous" is the best argument you can come up with? You'd be closer to home if you called me a hypocrite but these are just ways to sidestep the question at hand by attacking me personally. Heat pumps are much more efficient, let's grant, but there's no answer with zero waste heat. I think there's a real question whether, no matter how much everything's electrified, a model where everyone rides…

I never said you were jealous. I said you sound like you're envious. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPhrTOg1RUk - maybe watch this (it is quite enjoyable!) and it could change your mind about how you think of envy. Heat pumps just move heat around... They do not create heat. If they did - we'd have some violations of laws. All they're doing is going to transfer geothermal, solar, wind, etc. power into heat transfer…

I'm not watching a 2-hour video to figure out what you think the distinction between jealousy and envy is. The point is, I'm living the same lifestyle as many other Americans but I'm not sure we can do it forever.

I'm not going to dispute the point about heat pumps more because I don't know enough about them to argue credibly about it. Maybe you're right and it's a perfect solution to the problem.

> What model are you speaking of where they claim electric cars are not viable for the future? (Assuming renewable energy sources and sustainable use of natural resources, etc.)

That assumes away the problem I think. Is it really inconceivable that we're going to start hitting limits to resources, especially if we're doubling down on cars which all have their own large batteries, sprawling asphalt, and all the rest of it? It seems really hard to imagine to me that we're going to chance on technology that makes it just as sustainable for everyone to live in a McMansion and drive an F-150 an hour to work as for people to ride trains or bicycles and live in denser housing. Certainly we could do much better than now before we started to nip at that stuff but I feel like there have to be limits. If it's so easy and we have all the answers I have to wonder why all the kicking and screaming to get there.

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#115

Post by bradlys »

emodendroket wrote: post #114
bradlys wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never said you were jealous. I said you sound like you're envious. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPhrTOg1RUk - maybe watch this (it is quite enjoyable!) and it could change your mind about how you think of envy. Heat pumps just move heat around... They do not create heat. If they did - we'd have some violations of laws. All they're doing is going to transfer geothermal, solar, wind, etc. power into heat transfer…

I'm not watching a 2-hour video to figure out what you think the distinction between jealousy and envy is. The point is, I'm living the same lifestyle as many other Americans but I'm not sure we can do it forever. I'm not going to dispute the point about heat pumps more because I don't know enough about them to argue credibly about it. Maybe you're right and it's a perfect solution to the problem. > What model are yo…

It doesn't assume away the problem. It is the problem. The issue isn't the lifestyle. The issue is how the resources are gathered and how the power is produced. Those are the issues - the lifestyle isn't the issue.

You have been sucked into believing by corporations that you are the issue but it's the corporations who are the issue. They want you to take personal responsibility for their issues. Everything is pushed onto the end user and the individual as responsibility rather than a corporation to do things in a manner that is best for us all. You know why? Cause that's good for the corporations! They can do horrible things and not have to deal with any of the externalities that they're creating and rake in the profit! These strategies have been mainstream for well over 50 years now.

Keep believing that personal responsibility is really the key to solving climate change but it will continue to do nothing and mean nothing. The responsibility is within your governmental body to take over how corporations are producing their products, harvesting resources, generating power, and the externalities that their products create.

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#116

Post by emodendroket »

bradlys wrote: post #115
emodendroket wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not watching a 2-hour video to figure out what you think the distinction between jealousy and envy is. The point is, I'm living the same lifestyle as many other Americans but I'm not sure we can do it forever. I'm not going to dispute the point about heat pumps more because I don't know enough about them to argue credibly about it. Maybe you're right and it's a perfect solution to the problem. > What model are yo…

It doesn't assume away the problem. It is the problem. The issue isn't the lifestyle. The issue is how the resources are gathered and how the power is produced. Those are the issues - the lifestyle isn't the issue. You have been sucked into believing by corporations that you are the issue but it's the corporations who are the issue. They want you to take personal responsibility for their issues. Everything is pushed…

It's true that "personal responsibility" is a bad framework that lets the corporations off the hook. But it's also true that when people say "the top 100 corporations do 80% of emissions," or whatever the number is, that they're washing their hands of a problem they contribute to, pretending like the corporations are extracting oil and natural gas for the hell of it and not because we're all buying these products to support our lifestyles.

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#117

Post by bradlys »

emodendroket wrote: post #116
bradlys wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't assume away the problem. It is the problem. The issue isn't the lifestyle. The issue is how the resources are gathered and how the power is produced. Those are the issues - the lifestyle isn't the issue. You have been sucked into believing by corporations that you are the issue but it's the corporations who are the issue. They want you to take personal responsibility for their issues. Everything is pushed…

It's true that "personal responsibility" is a bad framework that lets the corporations off the hook. But it's also true that when people say "the top 100 corporations do 80% of emissions," or whatever the number is, that they're washing their hands of a problem they contribute to, pretending like the corporations are extracting oil and natural gas for the hell of it and not because we're all buying these products to…

> to, pretending like the corporations are extracting oil and natural gas for the hell of it and not because we're all buying these products to support our lifestyles.

Do you really think it's a coincidence that the products sold to you are not environmentally-friendly/sustainable/whatever? It's not because consumers demand them... Consumers just want something cheap... But consumers aren't paying for externalities upfront... neither are corps... No one pays. Thus, cheaper. You offer two comparable products but one is cheaper - people choose the cheaper one! On top of that, our world and economy is built on these natural resources. Imagine if oil became $0 or $1000/barrel. It'd wreck certain parts of the economy either way - there is a heavy investment and lobbying infrastructure built upon maintaining the status quo.

You really are using the personal responsibility framework to a high extent. Corps are the biggest issue. Most issues of CO2 generators and other such things - people are very happy to use their replacements because there is very little difference in quality of life (sometimes it's even improved). The things people most want that create CO2 and there's no way around it ever are very low contributors to CO2 overall. You could easily wipe out over half of CO2 emissions in USA by just converting everything to renewable energy resources. (electric cars + electricity production + using heat pumps)

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#118

Post by fomine3 »

josephcsible wrote: post #87
jeffbee wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that standard American rebuttal. We have better houses than in a favela. We have better health care than Eritrea. Our transportation is better than Kazakhstan … oh shoot, wait, they have more high speed rail than the USA. Scratch that. I’ve lived in Japan and their housing is far superior. It is newer in general, well-built, quiet, warm, efficient, comfortable, functional, and cheap. American housing stock is no…

> I’ve lived in Japan and their housing is far superior. It is newer in general, well-built, quiet, warm, efficient, comfortable, functional, and cheap. American housing stock is none of those things, at twice the price. Don't houses in Japan only last 20-30 years? Isn't the only reason they're newer in general that they have to be rebuilt so often? Houses in America last way longer than twice that, so only paying tw…

Japanese houses usually lasts at least 40 years unless serious disaster (not earthquake, but like heavy typhoon or tsunami), maybe over 60 years if properly maintenanced. Any house won't last 20 years must be blamed. But just people may don't want to live in 40 years used old house but want only the land.

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#119

Post by fomine3 »

bluedevil2k wrote: post #89
jeffbee wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that standard American rebuttal. We have better houses than in a favela. We have better health care than Eritrea. Our transportation is better than Kazakhstan … oh shoot, wait, they have more high speed rail than the USA. Scratch that. I’ve lived in Japan and their housing is far superior. It is newer in general, well-built, quiet, warm, efficient, comfortable, functional, and cheap. American housing stock is no…

Then you didn’t really understand how Japan’s houses are built. They’re not built to last at all because new homebuyers buy the property and tear down the house and build a new one. Knowing that, home builders only build them to last 10-20 years and house maintenance is an after thought to most people. Contrast that with American homes, where you can homes in Detroit and Chicago and Boston and thousands of other town…

What's your source?

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#120

Post by emodendroket »

bradlys wrote: post #117
emodendroket wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true that "personal responsibility" is a bad framework that lets the corporations off the hook. But it's also true that when people say "the top 100 corporations do 80% of emissions," or whatever the number is, that they're washing their hands of a problem they contribute to, pretending like the corporations are extracting oil and natural gas for the hell of it and not because we're all buying these products to…

> to, pretending like the corporations are extracting oil and natural gas for the hell of it and not because we're all buying these products to support our lifestyles. Do you really think it's a coincidence that the products sold to you are not environmentally-friendly/sustainable/whatever? It's not because consumers demand them... Consumers just want something cheap... But consumers aren't paying for externalities u…

I used to think this way but I’ve come to suspect that it was a viewpoint attractive to me and others because it was soothing more than right.
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