Ask HN: What Apple alternatives are you switching to? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: What Apple alternatives are you switching to?

#281

Post by zepto » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 4:04 PM UTC

dont__panic wrote: post #207

zepto wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> iCloud is not end-to-end encrypted Yet. Have you considered that this might be a necessary precursor to making iCloud e2e?

If the goal was to make iCloud e2e, why not release both features at the same time so people can see that they're codependent (in Apple's eyes)? Without any kind of announcment or promise of e2e iCloud, we're just speculating for possible reasons why this might be OK. Might as well guess that this is going to allow Apple to give us free iCloud storage, too, while we're coming up with wishlist features.

> we're just speculating for possible reasons why this might be OK.

Sure. All the statements about why it’s not ok are also just speculation.

> why not release both features at the same time

That’s not how Apple typically works. They release a feature, try to make sure it works as expected and only then release the features that depend on it.

Re: Ask HN: What Apple alternatives are you switching to?

#282

Post by Keats » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 4:04 PM UTC

nicce wrote: post #151

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every other cloud provider has scanned since 2013. We're already in the Orwellian dystopia.

I think Apple is the only major company who tries at least a little to resist Orwellian dystopia. Business model of other companies cannot allow resisting.

Are we talking about the major company that is happy to give access to all of their users content if the country (eg China) asks? If they were really serious about privacy they would not operate under those conditions.

Re: Ask HN: What Apple alternatives are you switching to?

#283

Post by ChemSpider » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 4:04 PM UTC

macksd wrote: post #216

imwillofficial wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People are less concerned about the Chinese government's reach vs. the NSA Wait what? You’re 180 degrees wrong.

Of the two, which government do I think is more evil? China's. Which government do I, a permanent resident of America, think could more immediately make my life harder by being able to invade my privacy? America's.

Well, as somebody who has travel to China for business, I would not touch any Chinese hardware or OS at all. In the US and EU you have a working legal system.

Re: Ask HN: What Apple alternatives are you switching to?

#284

Post by runjake » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 4:06 PM UTC

beders wrote: post #232

sigmar wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yes, I'm sure the FBI will be satisfied with using the backdoor to only find CSAM, they definitely will not use the access for 'anti-terrorism' and drug enforcement. That sounds just like the FBI. What good is E2E encryption when they can scan your client with a backdoor? All Apple is doing with this hashing is giving themselves plausible deniability when this access gets abused down the road. "Oh we didn't know t…

There is no privacy on the internet and on your phone. People really need to get over this.

I won’t get over it. You need to get over people not getting over it.

Re: Ask HN: What Apple alternatives are you switching to?

#285

Post by pshirshov » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 4:06 PM UTC

merrywhether wrote: post #273

pshirshov wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if someone has that level of access to your phone, they could upload real CP and maybe even upload it to your Facebook for good measure. Many messengers, including Whatsapp, save all the incoming pics into camera roll by default.

And if you have iCloud Photos turned on, those images are already being uploaded and then CSAM-scanned on Apple’s servers. The chain is just being configured differently, but this risk is already active.

The actual problem is not CSAM scanning.

The actual problem is that they've created a great surveillance tool which will inevitably get broader capabilities and they are normalising client-side data scanning (we need to eradicate terrorism, now we need to eradicate human trafficking, and now we need to eradicate tax evasion, oh, we forgot about gay russians, hmm, what about Winnie memes?).

Re: Ask HN: What Apple alternatives are you switching to?

#286

Post by marcus_holmes » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

28220968 wrote: post #178

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every other cloud provider has scanned since 2013. We're already in the Orwellian dystopia.

Can someone explain this to me -- The whole premise is that Google and Facebook and everyone else are just doing this on the unencrypted photos you upload, in their cloud, with their own (presumably, but correct me if I'm wrong) undocumented algorithms and datasets. Now here comes Apple, documenting almost everything except the dataset itself, and everyone is freaking out because it's happening on your own device . B…

I think part of it is that Apple has always said "what happens on your iPhone stays on your iPhone". People expect Microsoft to be evil, and (post "don't be evil") Google to be evil. Apple was supposed to be the good guys in this. So it's more surprising and feels more like a betrayal when Apple decides to be evil.

Also, it's actually pretty easy to mess with Android and get it un-googled. Google don't make most Android phones, so there's less hardware-level enforcement of rules, and more independent alternatives. This is less so for Apple devices. If Apple decides to do something you don't like to your phone, you are SOL; you can only accept it or ditch Apple and switch to Android/something else.

Re: Ask HN: What Apple alternatives are you switching to?

#287

Post by nicce » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

28220968 wrote: post #178

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every other cloud provider has scanned since 2013. We're already in the Orwellian dystopia.

Can someone explain this to me -- The whole premise is that Google and Facebook and everyone else are just doing this on the unencrypted photos you upload, in their cloud, with their own (presumably, but correct me if I'm wrong) undocumented algorithms and datasets. Now here comes Apple, documenting almost everything except the dataset itself, and everyone is freaking out because it's happening on your own device . B…

> Am I missing something more than "but it's happening on-device!"?

People think that this kind of capability was not there already, while it was. The simplest example case is normal iCloud sync. It scans your files and gets metadata, finally comparing to cloud to know which files to sync.

Other concern is, that this can be easily expanded to other kind of content, or whole device (outside of iCloud files). While, this sounds like valid concern, government who can force this change, could have forced it already. "Technology does not exist" is not valid excuse, never was. There are pretty expensive consults used by politics to prove these excuses otherwise.

Re: Ask HN: What Apple alternatives are you switching to?

#288

Post by garmaine » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

imwillofficial wrote: post #184

system16 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's less about privacy and more about what the invading actor will/can actually do. People are less concerned about the Chinese government's reach vs. the NSA or other three letter agencies in the US. I suppose if you are important enough to the Chinese government whatever they have on you could be used as blackmail, but most 'regular' people don't fall into that category.

> People are less concerned about the Chinese government's reach vs. the NSA Wait what? You’re 180 degrees wrong.

Depends on the person. Those of us with ties to lands within Chinese sphere of influence are rightly more cautious. Others just don’t care.

Re: Ask HN: What Apple alternatives are you switching to?

#289

Post by donohoe » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

mateuszf wrote: post #113

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the thing. You might hate Apple for what they did. But I'm looking at the competition (Google, Amazon, Microsoft) and they're still worse for privacy in well-documented ways. It's an evil but it's still the least among evils.

> It's an evil but it's still the least among evils. Nope, you can use a degoogled android. There's still a matter of hardware that's not open but there's not much we can do that without sacrificing a lot of usability.

Yeah, but you're still stuck with Android. Thats just an insecure mess right there.

Re: Ask HN: What Apple alternatives are you switching to?

#290

Post by nicce » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 4:08 PM UTC

Keats wrote: post #282

nicce wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Apple is the only major company who tries at least a little to resist Orwellian dystopia. Business model of other companies cannot allow resisting.

Are we talking about the major company that is happy to give access to all of their users content if the country (eg China) asks? If they were really serious about privacy they would not operate under those conditions.

Company can't operate in the country, if they don't follow country's rules. Sad truth. They should have left the China in that case. On their defense, they have given only information which is stored by their system, not actively increasing the collection of it or creation of backdoors.