First town in America to ban new gas stations • Hacker News Board

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#61

Post by bobthepanda » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 2:40 PM UTC

CivBase wrote: post #40

What does this accomplish? A quick search on Google Maps shows this city (Petaluma, CA) already has at least 18 gas stations. Gas stations don't cause people to consume more gas - they are built because people are already consuming the gas. People will certainly just travel a little bit further for their fuel. Nobody is going to buy a new EV because of this. Even for the few people looking to buy a new vehicle there…

Gas stations have known environmental impacts. The storage tanks are an environmental hazard that makes redevelopment extremely expensive. The operation of the gas pump itself pollutes the air with toxic fumes, to the point where CA already bans their installation 300 ft from sensitive uses (e.g. schools and playgrounds) and even that may not be sufficient to actually prevent health hazards.

While for now they are a necessary part of the transportation system, gas stations have very obvious downsides at least from a local perspective.

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#62

Post by CivBase » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 2:41 PM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #28

Who would invest in a new gas station today? You're going to spend $1M+ on all the buildings, pumps, tanks, etc. And the population of gas cars in the road is slowly decreasing today, and expected to rapidly decrease in the future. Will you really get a good return in your investment when profits on selling gas are very slim, and the risks of EPA regulations giving you huge fines for gas leaks and soil decontaminatio…

It will be several decades before the vast majority of vehicles on the road are EVs. Even if all new vehicles sold were EVs starting tomorrow, the cars currently out there would account for the majority of road vehicles for at least another decade-and-a-half. There's plenty of time to recoup investment on a gas station.

Besides, most money for a "gas station" is made from the convenience store. Like you said, gas profits are slim. They make some money, but their primary purpose is to drive customers to the convenience store. When the tides do change, they'll probably just gradually swap out pumps for chargers and continue business as usual.

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#63

Post by whatshisface » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 2:41 PM UTC

gnramires wrote: post #59

cjtrowbridge wrote: post #3

Lots of towns have already done this. Berkeley did it years ago. It doesn't matter at all. The fact that Berkeley bans certain land uses means that the town next door, Emeryville, falls prey to fiscalization and simply makes their whole urban strategy be making money off of encouraging all the things Berkeley bans. The effect is that there are probably more gas stations than Emeryville than there would otherwise be i…

> It doesn't matter at all That's not true: it will cause an inconvenience to Berkeley residents using gas-powered vehicles. It's not definitive, but it has an effect on stimulating energy transition.

I'm sure the gas stations in Emeryville are very happy that the residents of Berkeley have to burn all that extra gas to drive to the big box stores outside of town.

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#64

Post by FridayoLeary » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 2:42 PM UTC

globular-toast wrote: post #60

FridayoLeary wrote: post #53

>is the tine turning? No. Because it will be quite a few years before anyone even starts noticing any reduction in gas stations. I think it's more of a political posturing than an indication of an emerging trend.

Which is exactly what the tide turning analogy is supposed to convey. It's difficult to notice when the tide turns, you notice it some 3 hours later which is when it's coming in/out at its fastest rate.

So in 15 years from now someone living in a town in America will notice he can't find a gas station near him. So he will hop over to the next place for fuel.

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#65

Post by JohnWhigham » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 2:42 PM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #37

I don't understand. There has been a gas shortage and waiting lines since the pandemic. Why would you go and outright ban gas stations? If we want less CO2 emissions we have to raise or introduce CO2 prices.

This is just another example of how out-of-touch rich CA liberals are with the rest of the world. Allows them to feel morally superior and makes everything in their town more expensive (which they want anyway).

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#66

Post by moate » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 2:43 PM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #37

I don't understand. There has been a gas shortage and waiting lines since the pandemic. Why would you go and outright ban gas stations? If we want less CO2 emissions we have to raise or introduce CO2 prices.

Just walk me through this: Did the gas stations all catch Covid and die?

What is the correlation between pandemic related gas shortages and a need for more fuel pumps (vs. more of the fuel to be delivered to the pumps because of pandemic related supply chain issues)?

Also, where are these constant waiting lines currently happening? I'm personally in NJ, an extremely densely populated state, and haven't seen anything other than the normal rush hour "4 pumps, 6 cars" type of lines. The larger filling stations (6+ pumps) almost never have more cars than pumps at any time I've driven past.

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#67

Post by thesuitonym » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 2:43 PM UTC

vnchr wrote: post #11

“Single data point observed — is this a trend?”

When it comes to city planning, changes aren't made unless there's already a trend. A town isn't going to just decide out of the blue to ban new gas station construction unless there was already a trend away from ICE vehicles.

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#68

Post by FridayoLeary » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 2:44 PM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #50

FridayoLeary wrote: post #9

Electric cars are expensive. You need to have money to buy one. By punishing petrol car owners, you are essentially rewarding rich people for having money.

I don't see the problem with rewarding people for CO2 reductions so your argument has a weird and abrupt end to it. Especially since the low end EV and used EV market is growing so your argument is losing its strength with every single year. The argument should have been that it takes time to transition off petrol cars and poor people need more time to transition so hasty decisions like banning gas stations should on…

So make a major push towards electric scooters and bikes in urban centres. Electric cars are an expensive joke at the moment. They can't compare to a diesel.

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#69

Post by CivBase » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 2:46 PM UTC

bobthepanda wrote: post #61

CivBase wrote: post #40

What does this accomplish? A quick search on Google Maps shows this city (Petaluma, CA) already has at least 18 gas stations. Gas stations don't cause people to consume more gas - they are built because people are already consuming the gas. People will certainly just travel a little bit further for their fuel. Nobody is going to buy a new EV because of this. Even for the few people looking to buy a new vehicle there…

Gas stations have known environmental impacts. The storage tanks are an environmental hazard that makes redevelopment extremely expensive. The operation of the gas pump itself pollutes the air with toxic fumes, to the point where CA already bans their installation 300 ft from sensitive uses (e.g. schools and playgrounds) and even that may not be sufficient to actually prevent health hazards. While for now they are a…

> The operation of the gas pump itself pollutes the air with toxic fumes, to the point where CA already bans their installation 300 ft from sensitive uses (e.g. schools and playgrounds) and even that may not be sufficient to actually prevent health hazards.

That's another result of fuel consumption, not the construction of new gas stations. The toxic fumes aren't reduced because a driver goes an extra couple minutes out of their way to use one of the existing stations.

The goal is to reduce automotive emissions. Gas stations don't incentivize automotive emissions - it's the other way around.

Re: First town in America to ban new gas stations

#70

Post by lucaspm98 » Wed, Aug 18, 2021, 2:46 PM UTC

nivenkos wrote: post #33

myself248 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The old saw has been "then you take the train", which only works for folks who are comfortable on trains, and whose type of travel fits with train schedules. I like having my own car, and I like roadtrips without schedules. For me, an EV needs about 8 miles of range for commuting, and about 1000 for vacation, and it's just silly to own 992 extra miles of battery the other 355 days a year. Which is to say, I think we'…

But you write as though that privilege is an inalienable right? No-one is going to confiscate all gasoline vehicles, but they need to pay for the externalities in air pollution, CO2 emissions and noise pollution, etc. If the US paid $6+ a gallon like most of Europe does, I think the tide would change pretty soon.

In the US having access to a car is much more of a necessity for work, shopping, and travel than it is in Europe due to suburban sprawl and lack of public transportation. I can't say it's a right, but it is a need for practically everyone outside of dense urban centers.

The average EV costs $19k more than the average gas-powered car. This gap is closing but for the time being only upper-middle to upper class Americans can switch to EVs, so making gas artificially scarce/expensive will disproportionately affect those who can't afford to make the switch.