Stop using Zoom, Hamburg’s data protection agency warns state government • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop using Zoom, Hamburg’s data protection agency warns state government

#161

Post by toiletaccount » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 10:32 PM UTC

ramimac wrote: post #153

lrvick wrote: post #118

I recommend almost anything else at all other than Zoom. As a security researcher that has reported a number of issues to Zoom, I can say without reservation they are one of the most security negligent companies I ever worked with. It was evident after multiple calls with their team they didn't employ anyone strong technically in their US offices and had no idea how to translate security issues, even obvious ones lik…

Disclaimer: Have worked with many smart folks who now work at Zoom. I agree that Zoom has had numerous security and privacy failings. I think it is important to color the characterization of their security teams with a timeline however. Looking at that gist - the majority of the content predates the conclusion of the "90 day security plan" [1]. The team, and product no doubt, has changed immensely in the past year. T…

and yet i still dont trust their shitware. there's a lesson to be learned there.

Re: Stop using Zoom, Hamburg’s data protection agency warns state government

#162

Post by version_five » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 10:35 PM UTC

sombremesa wrote: post #120

lrvick wrote: post #118

I recommend almost anything else at all other than Zoom. As a security researcher that has reported a number of issues to Zoom, I can say without reservation they are one of the most security negligent companies I ever worked with. It was evident after multiple calls with their team they didn't employ anyone strong technically in their US offices and had no idea how to translate security issues, even obvious ones lik…

Zoom has fixed the UX in this business, which is the one thing that matters most™, and which is why they will continue to be successful. It's like a restaurant which has the absolute best food by a mile, so they remain in business despite the cockroaches and unfriendly waitstaff. Most customers don't really care about privacy and security, they just want to pretend, and as long as they can easily pretend they're happ…

Many of the replies to your comment have the "No wireless, less space than a nomad" vibe" People seem to nitpick or claim equivalence between individual features, but like you say, Zoom was the sea change toward mass videoconferencing.

Re: Stop using Zoom, Hamburg’s data protection agency warns state government

#163

Post by SahAssar » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 10:36 PM UTC

rand_r wrote: post #150

aqme28 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you be more specific about the UI problems? It seems pretty equivalent to Zoom to me.

Two words: Gallery view. Like what in the actual fuck. How are they unable to do a simple grid properly? It’s just rectangles. The UI is there to copy from Zoom even.

I don't think having the gallery view grid less gracefully handling non-even numbers of participants justifies saying "The UI is so bad it's hard to believe".

Re: Stop using Zoom, Hamburg’s data protection agency warns state government

#164

Post by yorwba » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 10:39 PM UTC

lrvick wrote: post #111

okprod wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the OP meant options that are as "easy" as click on a link and join a meeting. I use BBB and Mumble but there are others I know who would never know how to set up their own instance or even what github is.

This is why multiple companies exist to sell you one-click hosted instances of these without lock-in.

Yeah, the press release https://datenschutz-hamburg.de/pressemitteilungen/2021/08/20... mentions that (in addition to a nameless internal videoconferencing tool) Hamburg uses Dataport as a vendor, which seems to imply Jitsi Meet: https://video.openws.de/

Re: Stop using Zoom, Hamburg’s data protection agency warns state government

#165

Post by sharken » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 10:41 PM UTC

AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #6

Offer a comparable alternative, then. I spend half my day on meetings either internally or with clients, and every time I have to jump on a client meeting with Microsoft Teams/Google Hangouts/WebEx/GotoMeeting because their company bans Zoom, it's a recipe for a fruitless meeting. Someone will fumble the sharing controls; screens will take forever to present; at least one person's microphone will become inaudible, st…

Have not experienced this myself, but it could be due to poor network connectivity.

What i find annoying about Teams, is the ability to use 100% CPU and 90% of the integrated graphics on a laptop.

Thankfully disabling GPU hardware acceleration have helped quite a lot.

Re: Stop using Zoom, Hamburg’s data protection agency warns state government

#166

Post by saddlerustle » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 10:46 PM UTC

lrvick wrote: post #112

saurik wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AdmiralAsshat's point was that all of the alternatives sucked because they were difficult or flakey to use: they weren't "comparable". Notably, the alternatives being mentioned as non-comparable weren't even trying to be local: they were remote service/ (which if you think Zoom is particularly bad, is still an improvement) built by giant companies that have tons of resources to have an army working on just these tool…

I use https://meet.jit.si/ daily and can confirm it is easier to use than Zoom or Hangouts. No nag screens trying to get me to install desktop clients or trying to get me to create an account or give up personal information. It just works.

Like all apps that are "just" WebRTC, jitsi doesn't work well on networks with persistently high packet loss. A VC app needs to work reliably 99.99% of the time, not just 99% of the time.

Re: Stop using Zoom, Hamburg’s data protection agency warns state government

#167

Post by vitus » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 10:50 PM UTC

rrdharan wrote: post #135

sombremesa wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Zoom first came onto the scene, the other technologies you've listed had more friction than coarse grained sandpaper. Zoom was the very first to let people join meetings without a) signing up; and b) downloading anything. I don't know about all the solutions you've listed, but Google Meet for example still requires an account whereas Zoom still does not. As more and more people use Zoom, the friction of using it…

Google Meet does not require an account to join a meeting. https://support.google.com/meet/answer/9303069

Um, it does...?

Under "Personal account users":

"Anyone who isn’t signed into a Google account can’t join your meetings."

This is a feature, not a bug: https://workspaceupdates.googleblog.com/2020/07/anonymous-us...

Although: "Note, this does not prevent users from dialing in by phone."

Re: Stop using Zoom, Hamburg’s data protection agency warns state government

#168

Post by nwienert » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 10:56 PM UTC

cycomanic wrote: post #157

Krasnol wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is irrelevant because those who knew about those are not the significant majority which is responsible for the success of zoom

So the point is not that zoom was better UX wise, but simply had better marketing, or not?

Both.

Honestly - there's huge, massive room for better UX that would really revolutionize online communication:

- Presence indicator/avatar in your toolbar of close contacts or team

- Push-to-talk to send audio to anyone from toolbar with non-disruptive indicator

- Instant screen/mouse share from there with audio and floating video optional

- Just so many fluidity improvements if you do a more minimal video window that can add/remove people without friction

I really wish someone would build it.

Re: Stop using Zoom, Hamburg’s data protection agency warns state government

#169

Post by the_reformation » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 11:06 PM UTC

toiletaccount wrote: post #161

ramimac wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: Have worked with many smart folks who now work at Zoom. I agree that Zoom has had numerous security and privacy failings. I think it is important to color the characterization of their security teams with a timeline however. Looking at that gist - the majority of the content predates the conclusion of the "90 day security plan" [1]. The team, and product no doubt, has changed immensely in the past year. T…

and yet i still dont trust their shitware. there's a lesson to be learned there.

You can't be pleased?

Re: Stop using Zoom, Hamburg’s data protection agency warns state government

#170

Post by gregsadetsky » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 11:07 PM UTC

saddlerustle wrote: post #166

lrvick wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use https://meet.jit.si/ daily and can confirm it is easier to use than Zoom or Hangouts. No nag screens trying to get me to install desktop clients or trying to get me to create an account or give up personal information. It just works.

Like all apps that are "just" WebRTC, jitsi doesn't work well on networks with persistently high packet loss. A VC app needs to work reliably 99.99% of the time, not just 99% of the time.

Agreed. I suggested Jitsi to a few university professors early in the pandemic last year. They used it for a good 6 months, with classes of about 20 people, 2-3 times a week.

The experience of not having to login and fuss with accounts was great. However, when everyone had their cameras on + screen sharing, audio quality typically suffered.

These professors since moved on to use Zoom and it’s way more stable. I don’t like Zoom generally (for many of the reasons noted in this thread), but it’s definitely reliable.