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Vaccination blunts, but does not defeat Delta

sciencemag.org

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Re: Vaccination blunts, but does not defeat Delta

#201

Post by convnet »

Barrin92 wrote: post #109
criticaltinker wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> all 3 of them told me to expect something like that - the virus mutates ... and the vaccines will likely be needing to adjust Your doctor friends were informing you about a phenomenon commonly referred to as "immune escape". The current mRNA based SARS-CoV-2 vaccines are effective at preventing severe outcomes like hospitalization and death. However, they do not necessarily prevent infection or transmission - and t…

>The current mRNA based SARS-CoV-2 vaccines are effective at preventing severe outcomes like hospitalization and death According to this very article this isn't even really true any more. Of the currently hospitalized population in Israel 60% are fully vaccinated. With 78% of the population vaccinated that implies the protection is actually surprisingly weak. " “There are so many breakthrough infections that they dom…

That's a misinterpretation of the statistics. The most vulnerable population has a much higher vaccination rate than the population as a whole, with well over 90% of Israelis over 70 vaccinated. People over 70 have a much higher chance of being hospitalized, so to only see 60% of hospitalizations be of vaccinated people shows how effective the vaccine still is at preventing serious disease.

Re: Vaccination blunts, but does not defeat Delta

#202

Post by dTal »

mikeyjk wrote: post #193
dTal wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fear there is a very common phenomenon nowadays - especially in the world of covid - where the wrong people say something for the wrong reasons, which makes right thinking people automatically dismiss it. It's a trap and we shouldn't fall into it. You can't say "The spike protein absolutely does not cause damage". That's going too far. Speaking as someone who doesn't pay attention to whatever the conspiracy theory…

As someone feeling a bit rough after my first Pfizer dose and generally is a hypochondriac - nooooo

Hey man, right here with you feeling rough after jab #2 :) The roughness is your immune system, not the spike protein itself per se, which is why jab #2 makes you feel a lot rougher - your immune system goes ape the second time.

A little perspective - one way or another, we're all going to be exposed to this damn spike protein eventually, and the vaccine is by far the safer way. If it does do something bad, we haven't noticed it yet, which presumably means it can't be that bad. I haven't seen any reports of people getting long covid from a jab.

Re: Vaccination blunts, but does not defeat Delta

#203

Post by minikites »

packetlost wrote: post #184
bingohbangoh wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wearing a mask is not a small ask. If it was, attendance at bars, restaurants, shows, etc. would not fall off a cliff when imposed.

It's funny, every time this gets brought up people always say "it's not that bad/inconvenient" as if their experience is the only one that matter. If you live where it's hot and humid climate, a cloth face covering will get extremely uncomfortable (and drenched) very quickly. Or god forbid you have glasses, long hair, and/or ear rings that get tangled constantly. I've smashed a pair of sunglasses on the concrete at l…

>Not to mention the psychological harm of (mass) mask wearing.

What is the mechanism for this harm?

Re: Vaccination blunts, but does not defeat Delta

#204

Post by packetlost »

minikites wrote: post #203
packetlost wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny, every time this gets brought up people always say "it's not that bad/inconvenient" as if their experience is the only one that matter. If you live where it's hot and humid climate, a cloth face covering will get extremely uncomfortable (and drenched) very quickly. Or god forbid you have glasses, long hair, and/or ear rings that get tangled constantly. I've smashed a pair of sunglasses on the concrete at l…

>Not to mention the psychological harm of (mass) mask wearing. What is the mechanism for this harm?

Mostly feelings of isolation and depression. For some, seeing faces (in person, not over video call) is super important for socialization. Basically, if you "get" people watching, you probably understand what I'm talking about. There's no studies as far as I know, but I imagine there's certain developmental aspects of interpreting facial expressions that young children are also missing out on to some extent. For me personally, I want to leave my house much less when everyone is wearing masks, both because it presents both a physical (however slight) and psychological burden on myself (it matters more for those with ADHD and other neurological differences). The biggest problem I have with the discussion now is that it borders on religious virtue signaling with how far people take it and you cannot bring up any counterarguments or examples without immediately being demonized.

Re: Vaccination blunts, but does not defeat Delta

#205

Post by voakbasda »

benttoothpaste wrote: post #181
me_me_me wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wearing a mask is not a small ask. Of course it is, I have been wearing mask for 2 years now. And I am wearing glasses. Is washing your hands too much to ask too? > If it was, attendance at bars, restaurants, shows, etc. That was due to social distancing and lockdowns, not masks.

> Is washing your hands too much to ask too? For (too) many people washing hands is indeed too much to ask...

>> Is washing your hands too much to ask too?

> For (too) many people washing hands is indeed too much to ask...

This. This is why Covid is here to stay.

Re: Vaccination blunts, but does not defeat Delta

#206

Post by voakbasda »

oseityphelysiol wrote: post #188
bakul wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps this will be a spur to invent a better mask? I believe fear will subside as over time most people tend to adjust to new realities.

What you should hope to be invented is better vaccines/treatment.

We have the vaccine/treatment. We lack a population willing to embrace it, at sufficient levels to make a meaningful difference.

Re: Vaccination blunts, but does not defeat Delta

#207

Post by hknapp »

gilbetron wrote: post #198
oliv__ wrote: post #84

What I'm curious about is: what happens now? When everyone starts realizing that vaccines and masks can't fully contain a spread, what's the next logical step to take? Are people going to insist that you keep wearing your mask, take booster shots and live in fear for the next 50 years or are we going to collectively change our mindset from "Zero COVID" to accepting that COVID is just another risk factor in the world…

We had a small chance of getting rid of covid if we had gotten nearly everyone, 90%+, vaccinated. That didn't happen, the politicization of the vaccine was insane, and so now we are stuck with covid. What does this mean? It means we are all going to get covid. Repeatedly. It is a new seasonal illness that will be with us, absent some magical technology. It is (or will be) endemic. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/fe…

> We had a small chance of getting rid of covid if we had gotten nearly everyone, 90%+, vaccinated.

By small chance, you mean 0% chance, right? Variants were already spreading by the time any vaccines were available. There are also billions of people who will likely not be vaccinated within the next couple years or so.

Re: Vaccination blunts, but does not defeat Delta

#209

Post by dragonwriter »

NonContro wrote: post #166
dragonwriter wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are people going to insist that you keep wearing your mask, take booster shots and live in fear I get a flu shot every year and wear a seatbelt when I drive. Not living in fear of either. Taking reasonable precautions doesn't involve living in fear. > or are we going to collectively change our mindset from "Zero COVID" to accepting that COVID is just another risk factor in the world and move on? Look at the places…

Florida has a higher age 65+ vaccination rate than California or New York: https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-covid-19/vaccine-trac... Respiratory viruses peak earlier before Winter in the tropics (ie. the South USA) whereas they peak during the Winter in the North. Southern USA will peak and fall, and then this Winter you'll see the same thing in the Northern USA. Its just the seasonality of colds/flus which has…

> Florida has a higher age 65+ vaccination rate than California or New York

No, California has 97% and Florida has 93%; California also has higher age 18-64 and 12-17 vaccination rates [0], has a number of local jurisdictions that have resumed indoor masking mandates (including many school districts for in-person education, with many of those that haven’t adopted mandates having parent-option virtual academies available) rather than a state government attempting to prohibit mask mandates. Countermeasures are more than just vaccines.

But, in any case, you didn’t answer the question: Are you willing to accept the degree of healthcare overload and the effects it is having on healthcare workers as a permanent or at least frequently recurrent state and accept the COVID and non-COVID deaths from exhausting ICU space, and the high burnout we’ve seen in the healthcare field? Is your plan to radically expand healthcare expenditures to expand capacity and attract/retain people in the field with that as the normal condition? Or are you willing to see the same load with dwindling capacity?

EDIT: forgot the link.

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-19-vaccine...

Re: Vaccination blunts, but does not defeat Delta

#210

Post by dragonwriter »

zpeti wrote: post #163
dragonwriter wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And I'm vaccinated, everyone in my country who wants to be vaccinated is. Why should I reduce the quality of my life for people who made a choice and took a risk? Vaccination isn’t a magic talisman against infection, or against illness if infected, or against transmitting the disease if infected. It reduces the likelihood of each , all other things being equal, but it isn't a guarantee against any of them (and is l…

OK, so basically humanity so far was in the wrong for not wearing masks for cold, flu, and every other transmissible disease, and we should wear masks forever in public?

> OK, so basically humanity so far was in the wrong for not wearing masks for cold, flu,

Masking in flu season isn’t uncommon in some parts of the world, and it was a lot more common during the 1918-1920 pandemic, so, “humanity” as a whole is not a constant.

Cultural variation aside, different respiratory viruses have different combinations of infectiousness and deadliness and responses to various countermeasures, so their are rational reasons the reactions to each, given a constant utility function, would differ. The common cold, the 2019 seasonal flu, the 1919 pandemic flu, and COVID-19 are all very different things.

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