Vaccination blunts, but does not defeat Delta • Hacker News Board

Re: Vaccination blunts, but does not defeat Delta

#191

Post by dTal » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 1:36 PM UTC

smt88 wrote: post #129

Auracle wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know that the spike protein itself causes damage. For adults that’s almost never an issue, but I feel like the overarching recommendation that pregnant women get the vaccine is misguided. It doesn’t make much sense to get it if they’ve already had COVID or are still working from home. If those aren’t true then the risk is probably worth it as a raging infection would almost certainly be worse for the baby. I just…

The spike protein absolutely does not cause damage. Please cite a reputable source. The claim that the spike protein is dangerous in and of itself is a fixture of anti-vax disinformation online. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/06/08/fac...

I fear there is a very common phenomenon nowadays - especially in the world of covid - where the wrong people say something for the wrong reasons, which makes right thinking people automatically dismiss it. It's a trap and we shouldn't fall into it.

You can't say "The spike protein absolutely does not cause damage". That's going too far. Speaking as someone who doesn't pay attention to whatever the conspiracy theory of the day is, I have nevertheless always wondered about the effect of of proteins in the blood whose sole purpose is to breach cell walls. Your comment motivated me to do a quick google. There are in fact many reputable papers hinting at unpredictable spike protein effects. Here's three:

SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Induces Degradation of Junctional Proteins That Maintain Endothelial Barrier Integrity [0]

The SARS-CoV-2 spike protein alters barrier function in 2D static and 3D microfluidic in-vitro models of the human blood–brain barrier [1]

SARS-CoV-2 spike proteins disrupt the blood-brain barrier, new research shows [2]

[0] https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fcvm.2021.68778...

[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096999612...

[2] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/10/201029141941.h...

Re: Vaccination blunts, but does not defeat Delta

#192

Post by jollybean » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 1:48 PM UTC

tinus_hn wrote: post #151

jollybean wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The people of today can do the same with Covid."? The plague wiped out 1/2 of Europeans and Smallpox maybe the majority of Aboriginals. Or something like that. Yes, 'we can survive' I don't think anyone doubts that. The question is, is it going to kill several million Americans or more during it's run. Hopefully not but I'm also someone can show us what the light at the end of this tunnel looks like.

Covid has a below 1% case fatality rate. It is not going to ‘kill several million Americans’.

Of course not that's my point - 'if' millions of Americans die, it's not really comforting to say 'oh we'll make it through'. Of course we'll make it through, that's not the issue.

Re: Vaccination blunts, but does not defeat Delta

#193

Post by mikeyjk » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 1:49 PM UTC

dTal wrote: post #191

smt88 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The spike protein absolutely does not cause damage. Please cite a reputable source. The claim that the spike protein is dangerous in and of itself is a fixture of anti-vax disinformation online. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/06/08/fac...

I fear there is a very common phenomenon nowadays - especially in the world of covid - where the wrong people say something for the wrong reasons, which makes right thinking people automatically dismiss it. It's a trap and we shouldn't fall into it. You can't say "The spike protein absolutely does not cause damage". That's going too far. Speaking as someone who doesn't pay attention to whatever the conspiracy theory…

As someone feeling a bit rough after my first Pfizer dose and generally is a hypochondriac - nooooo

Re: Vaccination blunts, but does not defeat Delta

#194

Post by calyth2018 » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 1:50 PM UTC

oliv__ wrote: post #84

What I'm curious about is: what happens now? When everyone starts realizing that vaccines and masks can't fully contain a spread, what's the next logical step to take? Are people going to insist that you keep wearing your mask, take booster shots and live in fear for the next 50 years or are we going to collectively change our mindset from "Zero COVID" to accepting that COVID is just another risk factor in the world…

The shot still generally does a great job at keeping the vaccinated from hospitalized.

We're already burning out our primary care enough for some to leave the profession, or worse.

Just because COVID is another risk factor, it doesn't mean we stop taking measures against it. The flu's a risk factor, yet we take flu shots, and don't go out french kissing strangers who's coughing, sneezing and having a fever.

Re: Vaccination blunts, but does not defeat Delta

#195

Post by mikeyjk » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 1:56 PM UTC

koolba wrote: post #22

jdhn wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Children (w/o vaccine) are dying of delta The number of children who are dying of covid has been ridiculously low for a virus that spreads so easily. Hasn't covid deaths for children under the age of 12 been under 1000 since the pandemic started?

It’s even lower if you factor in that the vast majority of those that died had existing underlying health issues. The level of social isolation the elderly have unilaterally imposed on the youth is a travesty.

Is this not a bit confused? The children being referred to would need supervision wouldn't they? They are also totally capable at spreading it to older people.

I find a lot of the discourse / antilockdown sentiment to be really confusing.

I understand lockdowns are a bad experience but are we not agreed that they save lives, and the quality of life (long covid)?

Re: Vaccination blunts, but does not defeat Delta

#196

Post by me_me_me » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 2:05 PM UTC

oseityphelysiol wrote: post #187

me_me_me wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YES! They did it in many asian countries before. When you feel under the weather you'd go to work/town in the mask not to spread. Also cold/flu cases are way down due to people masking up and cleaning hands. A lot of people complain about seatbelts being uncomfortable during driving, and yet its a law to wear them. Why?

That's not a sign of good hygiene, rather a sign of these countries dystopian work laws/ethics, where sick leave is apparently not a thing.

> rather a sign of these countries dystopian work laws/ethics, where sick leave is apparently not a thing

Oh yes, I too take sick leave when I have runny nose until its gone

Re: Vaccination blunts, but does not defeat Delta

#197

Post by criticaltinker » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 2:16 PM UTC

rsfern wrote: post #173

criticaltinker wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, the primary suggestion put forth by my original comment is: Strategies for viral elimination should therefore be diversified across molecular targets and therapeutic modalities Put another way: vaccines are a powerful and useful tool that can help us mitigate the pandemic, but if used indiscriminately they may actually work against us, so we need to proceed with caution and also use other tools where pos…

I agree with the general point that diversifying our vaccine targets is important for robust immunity, but you are sort of coming close to advocating that we not use the particular somewhat limited vaccine tech we have at our disposal now. The best strategy against escape variants available to us right now is to reduce transmission rates (especially to immunocompromised people) as much as possible with high vaccinati…

The core point of the OP article - and the data coming out of Israel - is that mass vaccination alone is less effective than expected at preventing the surge of transmission and infection by variants of concern.

The article you cited is in agreement with the literature I previously cited - as more people are infected the virus has more opportunity to mutate.

> The best strategy against escape variants available to us right now is to reduce transmission rates ... as much as possible with high vaccination rates

Your comment contradicts the mounting evidence we have available to us. Yes we need to use the vaccine tech we have at our disposal now - but in a highly targeted way, and supplemented by other viral elimination strategies that do not exert specific selective pressure on the virus.

Re: Vaccination blunts, but does not defeat Delta

#198

Post by gilbetron » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

oliv__ wrote: post #84

What I'm curious about is: what happens now? When everyone starts realizing that vaccines and masks can't fully contain a spread, what's the next logical step to take? Are people going to insist that you keep wearing your mask, take booster shots and live in fear for the next 50 years or are we going to collectively change our mindset from "Zero COVID" to accepting that COVID is just another risk factor in the world…

We had a small chance of getting rid of covid if we had gotten nearly everyone, 90%+, vaccinated. That didn't happen, the politicization of the vaccine was insane, and so now we are stuck with covid.

What does this mean? It means we are all going to get covid. Repeatedly. It is a new seasonal illness that will be with us, absent some magical technology. It is (or will be) endemic.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/what-will-it-be-l...

The point of the vaccination now is the same thing as always, to minimize the impact on society. Less hospitalizations and death, less days of our life spent ill, less misery.

People 100% should still get vaccinated, it is deeply stupid not to. It is particularly important the next several months as delta rips through the remaining unvaccinated population (which include those that can't, including under 12 year olds), because we want to avoid filling up hospitals and making our health care quit. For the same reason, we should wear masks and maybe try to reduce the time spent breathing each others air a bit. But the only ones that should live in fear are those unvaccinated that have never had covid and probably the old. But managing fear is something the old has to do anyway, comes with age ;)

Re: Vaccination blunts, but does not defeat Delta

#199

Post by gilbetron » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 2:24 PM UTC

oseityphelysiol wrote: post #186

I wonder what is the mutation mode of viruses regarding vaccines? Does harsher environment (more people with immunity) spur mutation, or is mutation frequency correlating with number of infected people?

The latter. Vaccines just affect the pathway variants take, but not the rate at which they mutate (they aren't bacteria and other life forms). And argument can be made that the vaccines create pathways to variants that wouldn't have been as viable without the existence of the vaccine, but that's relatively academic. A large population is what increases variant creation.

Re: Vaccination blunts, but does not defeat Delta

#200

Post by brodouevencode » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 2:28 PM UTC

_y5hn wrote: post #175

Karrot_Kream wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not here. Diabetes and heart disease are both associated with worse outcomes for COVID. That said I don't think it's realistic to expect more than a few people try to become more fit to stave off COVID.

There's no evidence "becoming fit staves off Covid".

Being fit does, as the data states.