Why Doesn't Software Show Up in Productivity? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Doesn't Software Show Up in Productivity?

#181

Post by akiselev » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 1:03 AM UTC

hvs wrote: post #32

neogodless wrote: post #4

This article makes me think of the woodworker's dilemma. You might start working with cutting, planing, joining and finishing wood because you want to make a chair or end table, and you like the idea of learning to do it yourself, maybe saving some money, or at least getting some extra tools out of the process, and having some pride in your work. But before you know it, you've spent 4 years accumulating tools, but mo…

A few nits to pick as a woodworker: 1) You never save money building it yourself (at least not in comparison to a standard consumer option, like a chair or table from your local furniture store. This may hold up if you compare what you build to high-end hardwood furniture. But with the cost of tools, you're probably still losing money if this is just a hobby) 2) 90% of my enjoyment of woodworking is just being in my…

Agree completely, with the caveat that standard consumer options are usually absolute crap unless you're spending serious money. I'm probably still in the red on my workshop as a whole (damn you Festool) but once I started needing stacks of large canvases to paint on and shelving to store them, for example, the most expensive piece of kit (Domino XL) started rapidly paying itself off. If you're like me and want to do everything yourself, the payback is exponential the more you do and longer you do it. The possibilities compared to standard consumer options are downright overwhelming but once you get started, you find out a lot of the consumer stuff is easy to replicate with minimal skills or expense. Take a look at what it takes to make a decent sectional [1] for example - it's a lot of time but if you're frugal with fabric at your local uphostery store, the savings on labor are easily $1k+.

The problems set in the second you try to profit from it - professional [anything] is a completely different ballgame.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNX3Z2cfiJA

Re: Why Doesn't Software Show Up in Productivity?

#182

Post by jefftk » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 1:12 AM UTC

jjk166 wrote: post #155

jefftk wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hiring a carpenter is very expensive. The cost of tools is tiny compared to the cost of their labor. (I'm assuming that we're talking about saving money in a way that counts your own time doing something you enjoy as free.)

A carpenter charges like $50/hr. A tablesaw alone would likely set you back more than the labor for some simple shelves. Then they can get better deals on material, they do higher quality work, and they do all the parts that aren't fun, like cleaning up at the end. Also your time still has value even if you enjoy what you're doing. You could be doing other hobbies you enjoy more, or other aspects of the same hobby, o…

With your estimates on payback time, I think you might be underestimating how many things I've built around the house ;)

Some examples:

* At least five sets of shelves, the biggest of which was https://www.jefftk.com/p/built-in-shelves

* Piano stand, so I could put my keyboard at just the right height on top of a wagon

* Folding monitor/TV, that is pretty sturdy and well protected when it's away: https://www.jefftk.com/p/folding-couch-monitor

I expect to keep doing this, and most of my tools aren't even halfway through their useful life.

There are some downsides, and you're right that a professional would make a lot of these things look better, but there are also serious downsides to working with a professional aside from the cost. It can be quite hard to get them to come when you want, they may not build exactly what you had in mind since communication is hard, and some people will cheat you (https://www.jefftk.com/p/brendin-lange-is-a-scammer)

Re: Why Doesn't Software Show Up in Productivity?

#183

Post by massysett » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 1:25 AM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #119

qwerty456127 wrote: post #70

Perhaps because mainstream software of today doesn't add much to what we had in 199x. There already were the same Word, Excel and e-mail those days - . (and I doubt live chats we have today can add much to productivity, well-thought and well-organized emails are better). It can be possible to boost productivity with something like Roam Research (especially used in collaborative mode) but it would require a lot of enh…

I disagree completely. I'm insanely more productive as part of a team than I was in 199x. Not even talking about things for software development specifically, but for general-purpose word-processing and spreadsheeting and scheduling, you've got: - Live collaborative cloud editing over mobile. The back-and-forth that previously might take a week can now be done in half an hour while you're in the back of an Uber in a…

Years ago, if you wanted to do a spreadsheet task Microsoft had a help file on the PC that was readable and indexed and told you how to do common tasks. Now there is no on-system help whatsoever and searching Google doesn’t even get you something from Microsoft but rather a page from the Houston Chronicle (??) that probably doesn’t even work for your version of Excel.

I think in most respects basic “office suite” software has not improved in over twenty years.

Re: Why Doesn't Software Show Up in Productivity?

#184

Post by analog31 » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 1:31 AM UTC

cactus2093 wrote: post #178

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #145

I am writing a book covering a lot of this ground (shout out to Roald Coase) - but I have a different (ish) conclusion. It's not going to be a few "software-friendly" companies like FAANG that eventually lead the charge and we see productivity - it's waaay longer term than that. My take is software is a form of literacy - and it will only be when managers code daily that we will see enough of the control layers (mode…

> when managers code daily No offense but this doesn't sound like a well thought out idea. Have you worked at a tech company as either a coder or a manager? Why should managers code daily? What would they be coding up anyway? If you're saying they should be coding features in the product, then I think you're just saying there should be no middle managers. That's been tried a lot in many different forms over the years…

At my workplace, managing the team is only a portion of each manager's job. The other portion is carrying out administrative tasks assigned by their manager. Examples include gathering data for updating and maintaining a variety of metrics and dashboards, writing procedures, and so forth. In fact a lot of that stuff could be automated, and it is. The managers, including one former coder, use mostly Excel. If they have to create a tool for others to use, with a user interface, they usually find a canned solution that can be bought and installed.

In fact, my lack of interest in that side of middle management is one of the things that led me to turn in my manager hat and return to the rank and file. Ironically, they promoted me out of management, which is a pretty good hint. ;-)

Re: Why Doesn't Software Show Up in Productivity?

#185

Post by smolder » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 1:48 AM UTC

manachar wrote: post #131

hvs wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few nits to pick as a woodworker: 1) You never save money building it yourself (at least not in comparison to a standard consumer option, like a chair or table from your local furniture store. This may hold up if you compare what you build to high-end hardwood furniture. But with the cost of tools, you're probably still losing money if this is just a hobby) 2) 90% of my enjoyment of woodworking is just being in my…

There's something amazing/odd/horrifying about a world where it is generally no longer cheaper to do anything yourself. I love to bake and cook. I can do so fairly frugally. A supermarket frozen pie is still gonna be cheaper than anything I can make, especially if I count my time. It's a benefit and goal of the modern global industrialized supply chain, but I cannot help feel that making me work a full time job to bu…

Assembly lines and clever optimizations to workflow improve the efficiency of a factory somewhat over DIY. Machinery and automation makes a lot of things much cheaper through reducing labor at the cost of consuming non-renewable resources. Global supply chains waste even more resources to take advantage of underpriced labor from disadvantaged people.

If there was a real accounting of the externalities, the sweet spot for efficiency would involve a lot more numerous, smaller producers of goods that don't require big investments in highly specialized equipment. It would be reasonable to have a couple chairs made by a regional furniture maker if not for the cheapness of burning oil to send things around the world.

Re: Why Doesn't Software Show Up in Productivity?

#186

Post by makeitdouble » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 2:10 AM UTC

zie wrote: post #44

orolle wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its a different discussion, quite off topic. When the boomers go into retirement, our current economic system with GDP growth focus has a big problem. Our system is based on produce more stuff and buy more stuff. But when the boomers retire, they will buy less stuff. Who will buy supply overhang? Nobody. Even worse, who will pay for the debt incurred to buy overly inflated asset prices, like housing and factories, wh…

I don't disagree it could definitely be a problem with the US, but so far, with immigration, it's not been a problem. As long as our immigration #'s stay up, the US should be fine. So far it's been a steady state, but it's unknown if that will continue into the future.

I agree with both you and the GP, and also see immigration as moving the hard problems from one field to another.

To solve the economic issue of maintaining growth, the US/EU moved to the issue of how to maintain a peaceful but diverse and divergent society.

I see Japan's partial bailing on immigration as a sign they don't see any good way to get through it, and we can see a lot of today's US internal fight as the result of not paying enough attention to how hard it is to adapt a society to the new challenges.

I wonder if there would be third ways, with economic powerhouse moving their "growth" to other countries without a stigma of stagnation or exploitation.

Re: Why Doesn't Software Show Up in Productivity?

#187

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 2:44 AM UTC

nrb wrote: post #169

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also a timeline element to this. I may not have saved myself any money at all by doing things myself when I was 25. But now I'm 57, and I can more or less fix anything in my house, and carry out more or less any changes I want or need to do, without outside assistance. Me fixing that one toilet leak myself at 25 was probably a net cost to myself - tools & time considered. But at this point, when I can just re…

Something to keep in mind is, despite those 30 years of experience that leads to one not needing to think about contacting a professional, knowing whether the work you're about to perform requires any permits/code; the lack of which might affect homeowners insurance claims or local code enforcement.

Part of the 30 years of experience is knowing when you need permits. That's why I got licensed by the state of NM to install my own solar array, and why I don't bother with permits for domestic plumbing here in NM (mostly).

Re: Why Doesn't Software Show Up in Productivity?

#188

Post by PaulDavisThe1st » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 2:45 AM UTC

derefr wrote: post #174

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over your lifetime, you might need 5 or 6 sets of shelves. Buy yourself a porta-tablesaw for about $400-$500 (or cheaper on craiglist etc), learn to use it, and chances are that somewhere in the middle of your life, the cost equation will have flipped in your favor.

That values storage costs at zero. Certainly not true if you live in a duplex, let alone an apartment!

Absolutely fair point. That's definitely a very different situation. Probably one of the reasons I doubt I could ever live in such a situation, at least until I'm 75 or so :)

Re: Why Doesn't Software Show Up in Productivity?

#189

Post by acutesoftware » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 4:40 AM UTC

bishoprook2 wrote: post #34

neogodless wrote: post #4

This article makes me think of the woodworker's dilemma. You might start working with cutting, planing, joining and finishing wood because you want to make a chair or end table, and you like the idea of learning to do it yourself, maybe saving some money, or at least getting some extra tools out of the process, and having some pride in your work. But before you know it, you've spent 4 years accumulating tools, but mo…

"This article makes me think of the woodworker's dilemma." I'll definitely say that this applies in the car hobby. It's a helluva lot more fun to arrange a garage than to pull out a transmission. In terms of software, and this is perhaps just my age (and industry) showing, but it would be interesting to set up a shop that used only simple/traditional make files, gdb/gcc, simple text editors, extremely simple source c…

I don't know if it is rare thing, but I also have loved making scripts and automated bits during software dev; and making jigs in woodwork took 50% of my time because that was such fun.

  > It's a helluva lot more fun to arrange a garage than to pull out a transmission.

Also, thanks for this comment - it sums up the fun of jig making and also gave me a light bulb moment in games. The fun doesn't have to be killing the orc, it can be organising your weapons and potions ready to kill the orc.

Re: Why Doesn't Software Show Up in Productivity?

#190

Post by choeger » Tue, Aug 17, 2021, 4:57 AM UTC

manachar wrote: post #131

hvs wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few nits to pick as a woodworker: 1) You never save money building it yourself (at least not in comparison to a standard consumer option, like a chair or table from your local furniture store. This may hold up if you compare what you build to high-end hardwood furniture. But with the cost of tools, you're probably still losing money if this is just a hobby) 2) 90% of my enjoyment of woodworking is just being in my…

There's something amazing/odd/horrifying about a world where it is generally no longer cheaper to do anything yourself. I love to bake and cook. I can do so fairly frugally. A supermarket frozen pie is still gonna be cheaper than anything I can make, especially if I count my time. It's a benefit and goal of the modern global industrialized supply chain, but I cannot help feel that making me work a full time job to bu…

It's a matter of quality. That frozen cake pales in comparison to something truly self-made. If I do some bread from basic ingredients (flour, sour dough, water), the result more often than not is great (after some experimenting) and costs maybe half of a n equally nice commercial product. Plus I spent my time in my kitchen and not out there shopping.