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U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

reuters.com

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Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#361

Post by ggreer »

gambiting wrote: post #253
sandworm101 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why not flip the scheme. Instead of have the human as backup to the machine, make the machine backup the human. Let the human do all the driving and have the robot jump in whenever the human makes a mistake. Telemetry can then record all the situations where the human and the machine disagreed. That should provide all the necessary data, with the benefit of the robot perhaps preventing many accidents. Of course…

I keep saying the same thing actually whenever people say that manual driving will be outlawed. Like, no, it won't be - because the computers will still save you in most cases either way, autopilot enabled or not. >>How about a Tesla that is electronically incapable of speeding. Good luck selling that one. From 2022 all cars sold in the EU have to have an electronic limiter that keeps you to the posted speed limit(by…

Your summary is incorrect. The ETSC recommends that Intelligent Speed Assistance should be able to be overridden.[1] It's supposed to not accelerate as much if you're exceeding the speed limit, and if you override by pressing the accelerator harder, it should show some warning messages and make an annoying sound. It's stupid, but it doesn't actually limit the speed of your car.

I think it's a silly law and I'm very glad I don't live in a place that requires such annoyances, but it's not as bad as you're claiming.

1. https://etsc.eu/briefing-intelligent-speed-assistance-isa/

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#362

Post by hetspookjee »

I wonder how many accidents happened because people were fiddling with their screen to turn on the windscreen wipers and took their eyes of the road too long in poor sight. I can't believe the law allowed the controls for the wiper speed to be put into this capacitive screen.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#363

Post by nthj »

alistairSH wrote: post #109
sandworm101 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why not flip the scheme. Instead of have the human as backup to the machine, make the machine backup the human. Let the human do all the driving and have the robot jump in whenever the human makes a mistake. Telemetry can then record all the situations where the human and the machine disagreed. That should provide all the necessary data, with the benefit of the robot perhaps preventing many accidents. Of course…

Nobody is going to buy a car that will randomly make its own decisions, that will pull the wheel from your hands ever time it thinks you are making an illegal lane change. That's almost exactly what my Honda does. Illegal (no signal) lane change results in a steering wheel shaker (and optional audio alert). And the car, when sensing an abrupt swerve which is interpreted as the vehicle leaving the roadway, attempts to…

Just to add, I have a 2021 Honda, and disabling this functionality is a 1-button-press toggle on the dash to the left of the steering wheel. Not mandatory.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#364

Post by [deleted] »

Seanambers wrote: post #81
3pt14159 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I largely agree with you, but I just wish regulators would start by only allowing these assist programs for people that are already known to be poor drivers. The elderly and convicted drunk drivers, for example. That way we could have the best of both worlds.

Teslas Autopilot system is almost 10X safer than the average human driver already based on the latest 2021 Q1 numbers. https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/VehicleSafetyReport

[deleted]

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#365

Post by ec109685 »

CommieBobDole wrote: post #312
jedberg wrote: post #276

A lot of people in here saying it is not possible to drive safely with partial self driving. I wonder, how many of those people have actually driven a car with autopilot? I have autopilot on my car, and it definitely makes me a better and safer driver. It maintains my distance from the car in front and my speed while keeping me in my lane, so my brain no longer has to worry about those mundane things. Instead I can s…

I drove a friend's Model 3, and within five minutes of driving on autopilot it got confused at an intersection and tried to make a pretty sudden 'lane change' to the wrong side of a divided road. Obviously that's a single anecdote, and I don't know if it would have gone through with it because I immediately corrected, but that was my experience.

I bet it would have made that mistake.

The question is whether a system that absolutely requires that you pay attention going through intersections (which you should obviously do) is safer in aggregate than not having those features enabled at all in those situations.

E.g. are weird lane changes that people don't catch happening more frequently than people zooming through red lights because they weren't paying attention. Only the data can show that, and Tesla should share it.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#366

Post by joshuanapoli »

tomdell wrote: post #285
jedberg wrote: post #276

A lot of people in here saying it is not possible to drive safely with partial self driving. I wonder, how many of those people have actually driven a car with autopilot? I have autopilot on my car, and it definitely makes me a better and safer driver. It maintains my distance from the car in front and my speed while keeping me in my lane, so my brain no longer has to worry about those mundane things. Instead I can s…

I would argue that partial self driving is an irresponsible product not because it's impossible to drive safely with it, but because so many people will use it as an excuse to pay little to no attention to the road. If you personally are a responsible driver and even a better driver with it, that's great - but most people probably aren't going to use it the same way, especially those without much of an understanding…

> so many people will use it as an excuse to pay little to no attention to the road

I guess that we have to look at the results here to judge whether too many people are not paying attention. Hopefully the investigation will reveal whether the autopilot incidents of collision with emergency vehicles is significantly more frequent or less frequent than from vehicles being driven in the traditional way.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#367

Post by sorokod »

spywaregorilla wrote: post #342
sorokod wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Survivorship bias?

That would only be relevant is a substantial portion of people who felt poorly about tesla autopilot had literally perished from it.

It was said in jest, but to your comment, no need to perish - just not be vocal about the negative feelings.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#368

Post by bob1029 »

jedberg wrote: post #276

A lot of people in here saying it is not possible to drive safely with partial self driving. I wonder, how many of those people have actually driven a car with autopilot? I have autopilot on my car, and it definitely makes me a better and safer driver. It maintains my distance from the car in front and my speed while keeping me in my lane, so my brain no longer has to worry about those mundane things. Instead I can s…

> my brain no longer has to worry about those mundane things

I would be terrified to share the road with someone of this mindset. Your vehicle is a lethal weapon when you are driving it around (assisted or otherwise). At no point can someone claim that a tesla vehicle circa today is able to completely assume the duty of driving. You are still 100% responsible for everything that happens in and around that car. You had better have a plan for what happens if autopilot decides to shit the bed while a semi jackknifes in front of you.

The exceptions are what will kill you - and others - every single time. It's not the boring daily drives where 50 car pileups and random battery explosions occur. Maybe your risk tolerance is higher. Mine is not. Please consider this next time you are on the road.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#369

Post by icelandicmoss »

Animats wrote: post #302

Right. As I've pointed out previously, Tesla seems to be unable to detect sizable stationary obstacles that are partly blocking a lane, especially if they don't look like the rear end of a car. In addition to emergency vehicles, Teslas on autopilot have plowed into freeway barriers and a street sweeper. That's the usual situation for first responders, who usually try to block as little of the road as possible but oft…

I feel like part of the problem with the kind of autopilot crashes you describe here is how inexplicable they are to humans. Whilst humans can be dangerous drivers, the incidents they cause generally have a narrative sequence of events that are comprehensible to us -- for instance, driver was distracted, or visibility was poor.

But when a supposedly 'all-seeing always watching' autopilot drives straight into a large stationary object in clear daylight, we have no understanding of how the situation occurred.

This I think has a couple of effects:

1) The apparent randomness makes the idea of these crashes a lot more scary -- psychologically we seem to have a greater aversion to danger we can't predict, and we can't tell ourselves the 'ah but that wouldn't happen to me' story.

2) Predictability of road incidents actually is a relevant piece of information. As a road user (including pedestrian), most of my actions are taken on the basis of what I am expecting to happen next, and my model for this is how humans drive (and walk). Automated drivers have different characteristics and failure modes, and that makes them an interaction problem for me.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#370

Post by paxys »

qweqwweqwe-90i wrote: post #340
Animats wrote: post #302

Right. As I've pointed out previously, Tesla seems to be unable to detect sizable stationary obstacles that are partly blocking a lane, especially if they don't look like the rear end of a car. In addition to emergency vehicles, Teslas on autopilot have plowed into freeway barriers and a street sweeper. That's the usual situation for first responders, who usually try to block as little of the road as possible but oft…

Yeah, let's ignore all the good and force everyone to go back to human drivers that are 10x worse.

Less than 100 first responders are hit annually in the USA. The fact that just Tesla has managed to hit 11 since 2018 makes it pretty clear that human drivers are not "10x worse" than Tesla's tech, but quite the opposite.
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