U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#351

Post by int_19h » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 9:05 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #276

A lot of people in here saying it is not possible to drive safely with partial self driving. I wonder, how many of those people have actually driven a car with autopilot? I have autopilot on my car, and it definitely makes me a better and safer driver. It maintains my distance from the car in front and my speed while keeping me in my lane, so my brain no longer has to worry about those mundane things. Instead I can s…

I have a car that does those things as well, and I use it a lot... but it's not Tesla, and its manufacturer doesn't refer to it "autopilot" or "self driving", but rather "advanced cruise control".

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#352

Post by sjg007 » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 9:05 PM UTC

postmeta wrote: post #346

Animats wrote: post #302

Right. As I've pointed out previously, Tesla seems to be unable to detect sizable stationary obstacles that are partly blocking a lane, especially if they don't look like the rear end of a car. In addition to emergency vehicles, Teslas on autopilot have plowed into freeway barriers and a street sweeper. That's the usual situation for first responders, who usually try to block as little of the road as possible but oft…

As this reddit post pointed out, this appears to be a common problem with radar TACC. https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/p5ekci/us_agen... """ These events occur typically when a vehicle is partially in a lane and radar has to ignore a stationary object. This is pretty standard and inherent with TACC + radar. The faster Tesla pushes the vision only stack to all cars after they’ve validated the data, the fa…

What about Subaru eyesight? I thought it did..

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#353

Post by clifdweller » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 9:07 PM UTC

qweqwweqwe-90i wrote: post #340

Animats wrote: post #302

Right. As I've pointed out previously, Tesla seems to be unable to detect sizable stationary obstacles that are partly blocking a lane, especially if they don't look like the rear end of a car. In addition to emergency vehicles, Teslas on autopilot have plowed into freeway barriers and a street sweeper. That's the usual situation for first responders, who usually try to block as little of the road as possible but oft…

Yeah, let's ignore all the good and force everyone to go back to human drivers that are 10x worse.

the point isn't to ignore it but to make sure everyone using it is 100% aware they need to be paying attention as this is a edge case that is common that the system cant handle so drivers are still responsible to take over

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#354

Post by kube-system » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 9:08 PM UTC

qweqwweqwe-90i wrote: post #340

Animats wrote: post #302

Right. As I've pointed out previously, Tesla seems to be unable to detect sizable stationary obstacles that are partly blocking a lane, especially if they don't look like the rear end of a car. In addition to emergency vehicles, Teslas on autopilot have plowed into freeway barriers and a street sweeper. That's the usual situation for first responders, who usually try to block as little of the road as possible but oft…

Yeah, let's ignore all the good and force everyone to go back to human drivers that are 10x worse.

Tesla does not offer a vehicle that does not require human drivers (not even momentarily). Tesla's autopilot and FSD systems are both SAE Level 2, which means the human is still in operation of the vehicle at all times. All of Tesla's driving assistance technologies require a human to monitor operation of the vehicle and intervene if necessary. The fact that they have given anyone an impression otherwise is problematic.

https://www.sae.org/binaries/content/gallery/cm/articles/pre...

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#355

Post by freshpots » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 9:08 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #134

ben_w wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the 1st quarter, we registered one accident for every 4.19 million miles driven in which drivers had Autopilot engaged. For those driving without Autopilot but with our active safety features, we registered one accident for every 2.05 million miles driven. For those driving without Autopilot and without our active safety features, we registered one accident for every 978 thousand miles driven. By comparison, NHT…

As was stated elsewhere, most accidents happen in city driving where autopilot cannot be activated so the with/without AI is meaningless. We need to figure out when the AI could have been activated but wasn't, if you do that then you are correct.

"..most accidents happen in city driving where autopilot cannot be activated so the with."

Yes it can. The only time it can't be activated is if there is no clearly marked center line.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#356

Post by int_19h » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 9:10 PM UTC

minhazm wrote: post #266

ghaff wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe a fairly small sample size but I don't know the last time I've been in a car where the driver has turned on cruise control. But it probably varies by area of the country. In the Northeast, there's just enough traffic in general that it's not worth it for me.

In traffic is where traffic aware cruise control is most useful. A lot of people I knew who bought Tesla's in the bay area specifically bought it so their commutes would be less stressful with the bumper to bumper traffic. I drove 3000+ miles across the country last year with > 90% of it on AP and I was way less tired with AP on vs off and it allowed me to just stay focused on the road and look out for any issues.

One thing worth noting about Subaru's approach to this that is specifically relevant to bumper-to-bumper traffic, is that it will stop by itself, but it won't start moving by itself - the driver needs to tap the accelerator for that. It will warn you when the car in front starts moving, though.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#357

Post by gusgus01 » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 9:12 PM UTC

kemiller wrote: post #295

tomdell wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that partial self driving is an irresponsible product not because it's impossible to drive safely with it, but because so many people will use it as an excuse to pay little to no attention to the road. If you personally are a responsible driver and even a better driver with it, that's great - but most people probably aren't going to use it the same way, especially those without much of an understanding…

Yes there have been stories about irresponsible people. Do you have any evidence that this is the common case? The aggregate evidence seems to suggest reduced accidents and reduced fatalities.

There was a study that adaptive cruise control and lane assist leads to more people speeding: https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/adaptive-cruise-control-spu...

They then use a "common formula" to show that that leads to more fatal accidents, but didn't actually study on actual crash data.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#358

Post by Loughla » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 9:19 PM UTC

sjg007 wrote: post #352

postmeta wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As this reddit post pointed out, this appears to be a common problem with radar TACC. https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/p5ekci/us_agen... """ These events occur typically when a vehicle is partially in a lane and radar has to ignore a stationary object. This is pretty standard and inherent with TACC + radar. The faster Tesla pushes the vision only stack to all cars after they’ve validated the data, the fa…

What about Subaru eyesight? I thought it did..

Subaru's eyesight absolutely will stop you when you think you're about to hit something, regardless of whether or not that something was moving previously.

It's actually really annoying if you live in a rural area without clearly defined lanes, and large, stationary objects (tractors and whatnot) close to the road.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#359

Post by xsmasher » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 9:21 PM UTC

WA wrote: post #281

mensetmanusman wrote: post #21

I remember when Google was first presenting on driverless technology about 10 years ago, and they mentioned how you have to go right to full self driving, because any advanced driver assistance will clash with human risk compensation behavior. Risk compensation is fascinating; driving with a bike helmet causes the biker and drivers around the biker to behave more dangerously. Is society sophisticated enough to deal w…

> Risk compensation is fascinating; driving with a bike helmet causes the biker and drivers around the biker to behave more dangerously. Do you have a truly reliable source for that? Because I hear this statement once in a while, and it feels flawed. A helmet protects you from severe head injury if you are in an accident. There are more reasons for accidents than reckless car drivers. For example: - Bad weather - Dri…

Parent did not say that helmets make you less safe. They said that helmets make drivers around the biker behave more dangerously.

https://www.bicycling.com/news/a25358099/drivers-give-helmet...

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#360

Post by xsmasher » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

barbazoo wrote: post #333

xsznix wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here you go: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00014... https://psyarxiv.com/nxw2k

I cannot open the study in the first link but the second on seems to actually refute the claim instead of supporting it. > There is a body of research on how driver behaviour might change in response to bicyclists’ appearance. In 2007, Walker published a study suggesting motorists drove closer on average when passing a bicyclist if the rider wore a helmet, potentially increasing the risk of a collision. Olivier and W…

Keep reading.

> We then present a new analysis of the original dataset, measuring directly the extent to which drivers changed their behaviour in response to helmet wearing. This analysis confirms that drivers did, overall, get closer when the rider wore a helmet.