U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#281

Post by WA » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 7:51 PM UTC

mensetmanusman wrote: post #21

I remember when Google was first presenting on driverless technology about 10 years ago, and they mentioned how you have to go right to full self driving, because any advanced driver assistance will clash with human risk compensation behavior. Risk compensation is fascinating; driving with a bike helmet causes the biker and drivers around the biker to behave more dangerously. Is society sophisticated enough to deal w…

> Risk compensation is fascinating; driving with a bike helmet causes the biker and drivers around the biker to behave more dangerously.

Do you have a truly reliable source for that? Because I hear this statement once in a while, and it feels flawed.

A helmet protects you from severe head injury if you are in an accident. There are more reasons for accidents than reckless car drivers. For example:

- Bad weather

- Driver not seeing the biker at all (no matter with or without helmet)

- Crash between 2 cyclists

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#282

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 7:52 PM UTC

supperburg wrote: post #261

The Tesla FSD beta is what we all dreamed of in the 90s. It’s mind blowing. Its so crazy that it’s finally arrived, though not able to fully and reliably drive itself in every circumstance, and nobody seems to care. People only seem to be foaming at the mouth about the way way the product is labeled. If HN found the holy grail but it was labeled “un-holy grail” then HN would apparently chuck it over their shoulder.

[deleted]

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#283

Post by jhgb » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 7:52 PM UTC

DrBenCarson wrote: post #214

jeffnappi wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I own a Model Y and am a pretty heavy Autopilot user. You have to regularly give input on the steering wheel and if you fail a few times it won't let you re-engage until you park and start again. Personally Autopilot has actually made driving safer for me... I think there's likely abuse of the system though that Tesla could work harder to prevent.

I personally think the issue boils down to their use of the term "Autopilot" for a product that is not Autpilot (and never will be with the sensor array they're using IMO.) They are sending multiple signals that this car can drive itself (going so far as charging people money explicitly for the "self-driving" feature) when it cannot in the slightest do much more than stay straight on an empty highway. They should be…

> the issue boils down to their use of the term "Autopilot" for a product that is not Autpilot

It is literally an autopilot. Just like an autopilot on an airplane, it keeps you stable and in a certain flight corridor. There's virtually no difference except for Tesla's Autopilot's need to deal with curved trajectories.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#284

Post by throwaway09223 » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 7:52 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #276

A lot of people in here saying it is not possible to drive safely with partial self driving. I wonder, how many of those people have actually driven a car with autopilot? I have autopilot on my car, and it definitely makes me a better and safer driver. It maintains my distance from the car in front and my speed while keeping me in my lane, so my brain no longer has to worry about those mundane things. Instead I can s…

Agreed. I have a rudimentary radar enhanced cruise control in my minivan and I've found it's really helpful for maintaining a safe stopping distance while driving.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#285

Post by tomdell » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 7:52 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #276

A lot of people in here saying it is not possible to drive safely with partial self driving. I wonder, how many of those people have actually driven a car with autopilot? I have autopilot on my car, and it definitely makes me a better and safer driver. It maintains my distance from the car in front and my speed while keeping me in my lane, so my brain no longer has to worry about those mundane things. Instead I can s…

I would argue that partial self driving is an irresponsible product not because it's impossible to drive safely with it, but because so many people will use it as an excuse to pay little to no attention to the road. If you personally are a responsible driver and even a better driver with it, that's great - but most people probably aren't going to use it the same way, especially those without much of an understanding of the technology - and especially given the way that Tesla markets it.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#286

Post by rubicon33 » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 7:52 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #276

A lot of people in here saying it is not possible to drive safely with partial self driving. I wonder, how many of those people have actually driven a car with autopilot? I have autopilot on my car, and it definitely makes me a better and safer driver. It maintains my distance from the car in front and my speed while keeping me in my lane, so my brain no longer has to worry about those mundane things. Instead I can s…

Something tells me the majority of people with partial self driving aren't using it as a means of staying more focussed on the road. There's a pesky little device buzzing around in everyone's pocket that is more likely the recipient of this newfound attention.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#287

Post by cactus2093 » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 7:54 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #74

Robotbeat wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually disagree. (And before you respond, please read my post because it’s not a trivial point.) The fact that an huge formal investigation happened with just a single casualty is proof that it may actually be superior for safety in the long-term (when combined with feedback from regulators and government investigators). One death in conventional vehicles is irrelevant. But because of the high profile of Tesla’s…

Then why not flip the scheme. Instead of have the human as backup to the machine, make the machine backup the human. Let the human do all the driving and have the robot jump in whenever the human makes a mistake. Telemetry can then record all the situations where the human and the machine disagreed. That should provide all the necessary data, with the benefit of the robot perhaps preventing many accidents. Of course…

> How about a Tesla that is electronically incapable of speeding. Good luck selling that one.

Instead they did the exact opposite with the plaid mode model S, lol. It kind of works against their claims that they prioritize safety when their hottest new car - fully intended for public roads - has as its main selling point the ability to accelerate from 60-120 mph faster than any other car.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#288

Post by jskrn » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 7:57 PM UTC

tomdell wrote: post #285

jedberg wrote: post #276

A lot of people in here saying it is not possible to drive safely with partial self driving. I wonder, how many of those people have actually driven a car with autopilot? I have autopilot on my car, and it definitely makes me a better and safer driver. It maintains my distance from the car in front and my speed while keeping me in my lane, so my brain no longer has to worry about those mundane things. Instead I can s…

I would argue that partial self driving is an irresponsible product not because it's impossible to drive safely with it, but because so many people will use it as an excuse to pay little to no attention to the road. If you personally are a responsible driver and even a better driver with it, that's great - but most people probably aren't going to use it the same way, especially those without much of an understanding…

Well said, that last bit especially. The regulations on medical devices are on how the manufacturer markets it. Should be the same for driving technology.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#289

Post by wilg » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 7:57 PM UTC

jazzyjackson wrote: post #264

oblio wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it have/use emergency braking in case of danger, if you don't use self-driving?

Yes but they are phasing out radar in favor of vision-only. Model 3 and Y have been shipping without radar braking for the past few months.

They still do emergency braking regardless of the sensor technology.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#290

Post by Johnny555 » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 7:57 PM UTC

beambot wrote: post #275

Johnny555 wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On most or all roads below 100km/h autopilot won’t allow speeding, and therefore I drive at the limit, which I know I would not have done if I controlled it If following the speed limit makes cars safer, another way to achieve that without autopilot is to just have all cars limit their speed to the speed limit. Sometimes it’s wonky when the street lines are unclear. It’s not perfect but a better driver than I am in 8…

> just have all cars limit their speed to the speed limit. The devil is in the details... GPS may not provide sufficient resolution. Construction zones. School zones with variable hours. Tunnels. Adverse road conditions. Changes to the underlying roads. Different classes of vehicles. Etc. By the time you account for all the mapping and/or perception, you could've just improved the autonomous driving and eliminated th…

But you can still impose a max speed limit based on available data to cover most normal driving conditions but it's still on the driver to drive slower if appropriate. And that could be implemented today, not a decade from now when autonomous driving is trustable.

The parent post said that autopilot won't let him go over the speed limit and implies that makes him safer. My point is that you don't need full autopilot for that.

So this is not a technical problem at all, but a political one. As the past year has shown, people won't put up with any convenience or restriction, even if it could save lives (not even if it could save thousands of lives)