U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#161

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 2:42 PM UTC

paul7986 wrote: post #110

TacticalCoder wrote: post #27

I drive a lot across Europe: as in, really a lot, long trip across several countries, several times a year. I drive enough on the highways to know a few scary situations, like the truck driver in a big curve slightly deviating out of his lane and "pushing" me dangerously close to the median strip for example. To me driving requires paying constant attention to the road and being always ready to act swiftly: I just do…

Fully automated Self driving cars is either a pipe dream or decades away in which many more people will be killed on the road in the name of technological progress.

[deleted]

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#162

Post by tgsovlerkhgsel » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 2:42 PM UTC

politician wrote: post #76

TacticalCoder wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As long as the resulting package (flawed self driving system + the average driver) isn't significantly more dangerous than the average unassisted human driver... Shouldn't that compared to "average driver + myriad of modern little safety features" instead of "average unassisted driver"? The one who has the means to drive a Tesla with the "full driving" mode certain has the means to buy, say, a Toyota full of assist…

Why isn’t defeating the self-driving attention controls a crime like reckless driving? Isn’t that the obvious solution?

It almost certainly is, at least when combined with the intentional inattention that follows.

Making it a crime isn't an "obvious solution" to actually make it not happen. Drunk driving is a crime and yet people keep doing it. Same with texting and driving.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#163

Post by zip1234 » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 2:44 PM UTC

TacticalCoder wrote: post #27

I drive a lot across Europe: as in, really a lot, long trip across several countries, several times a year. I drive enough on the highways to know a few scary situations, like the truck driver in a big curve slightly deviating out of his lane and "pushing" me dangerously close to the median strip for example. To me driving requires paying constant attention to the road and being always ready to act swiftly: I just do…

Also, these cars know the speed limits for the road but let you set cruise control/self driving above the speed limit. Seems like for safety purposes that should not be allowed. Not only are people paying significantly less attention but they also are speeding.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#164

Post by ghaff » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 2:44 PM UTC

hcurtiss wrote: post #155

ghaff wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To tell you the truth, I generally do and haven't used it for ages. Where I drive, the roads have some amount of traffic. I find (traditional) cruise control encourages driving at a constant speed to a degree that I wouldn't as a driver with a foot on the gas. So I don't "hate" regular cruise control but I basically never use it.

I think you are in a distinct minority.

Maybe a fairly small sample size but I don't know the last time I've been in a car where the driver has turned on cruise control. But it probably varies by area of the country. In the Northeast, there's just enough traffic in general that it's not worth it for me.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#165

Post by zemptime » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 2:45 PM UTC

TacticalCoder wrote: post #27

I drive a lot across Europe: as in, really a lot, long trip across several countries, several times a year. I drive enough on the highways to know a few scary situations, like the truck driver in a big curve slightly deviating out of his lane and "pushing" me dangerously close to the median strip for example. To me driving requires paying constant attention to the road and being always ready to act swiftly: I just do…

I see a lot of comments here postulating how autopilot is a terribly designed feature from people who appear not to be speaking from first hand experience and now I feel compelled to comment, exactly following that HN pattern someone posted about how HN discussions go. That said thanks for keeping this discussion focused & framed as a system design one, doesn't feel like a Tesla hate train so I feel comfortable hoppin' in and sharing. This is a little refreshing to see.

Anyway, perhaps I'm in a minority here, but I feel as though my driving has gotten _significantly safer_ since getting a Tesla, particularly on longer road trips.

Instead of burning energy making sure my car stays in the lane I can spend nearly all my time observing drivers around me and paying closer attention farther down the road. My preventative and defensive driving has gone up a level.

> I just don't understand how you can have a "self driving car but you must but be ready to put your hands back on the steering wheel and your foot on the pedal(s)".

I've not hit animals and dodged random things rolling/blowing into the road at a moment's notice. This isn't letting autopilot drive, it's like a hybrid act where it does the rote driving and I constantly take over to quickly pass a semi on a windy day, not pass it on a curve, or get over some lanes to avoid tire remnants in the road up ahead. I'm able to watch the traffic in front and behind and find pockets on the highway with nobody around me and no clumping bound to occur (To your suspicion, it is a different mode of driving. Recently I did a roadtrip (about half the height of the USA) in a non-Tesla, and I found myself way more exhausted and less alert towards the end of it. Could be I'm out of habit but egh.

Anyway, so far I've been super lucky. I don't think it's possible to avoid all car crashes no matter how well you drive. But I _for sure_ have avoided avoidable ones and taken myself out of situations where they later occurred thanks to the extra mental cycles afforded to me by auto-pilot. My safety record in the Tesla is currently perfect and I'll try and keep it that way.

I don't think autopilot is perfect either but I do think it's a good tool and I'm a better driver for it. Autopilot has definitely helped me spend better focus on driving.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#166

Post by sandworm101 » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 2:46 PM UTC

peeters wrote: post #129

alistairSH wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is going to buy a car that will randomly make its own decisions, that will pull the wheel from your hands ever time it thinks you are making an illegal lane change. That's almost exactly what my Honda does. Illegal (no signal) lane change results in a steering wheel shaker (and optional audio alert). And the car, when sensing an abrupt swerve which is interpreted as the vehicle leaving the roadway, attempts to…

> Illegal (no signal) lane change results in a steering wheel shaker (and optional audio alert). To be clear, tying the warning to the signal isn't about preventing unsignaled lane changes, it's gauging driver intent (i.e. is he asleep and drifting or just trying to change lanes). It's just gravy that it will train bad drivers to use their signals properly.

Is a lane change without signal always illegal? I know that it almost certainly make you liable for any resulting accident, but I'm not sure that it is universally illegal.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#167

Post by literallyaduck » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 2:46 PM UTC

I believe we should have safety probes. Lots of people who have taken money from the auto industry want this specifically for Tesla. There is a strong possibility this is political punishment for wrongthink.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#168

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 2:48 PM UTC

CrazyStat wrote: post #115

sandworm101 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why not flip the scheme. Instead of have the human as backup to the machine, make the machine backup the human. Let the human do all the driving and have the robot jump in whenever the human makes a mistake. Telemetry can then record all the situations where the human and the machine disagreed. That should provide all the necessary data, with the benefit of the robot perhaps preventing many accidents. Of course…

> Want safety? How about a Tesla that is electronically incapable of speeding. That would be unsafe in many situations. If the flow of traffic is substantially above the speed limit--which it often is--being unable to match it increases the risk of accident. This is known as the Solomon curve [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_curve

[deleted]

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#169

Post by deegles » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 2:49 PM UTC

ra7 wrote: post #107

Seanambers wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teslas Autopilot system is almost 10X safer than the average human driver already based on the latest 2021 Q1 numbers. https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/VehicleSafetyReport

Tesla's safety report lacks data and is extremely misleading. 1. Autopilot only works on (or intended to work on) highways. But they are comparing their highway record to all accident records including city driving, where accident rate is far higher than highway driving. 2. They're also comparing with every vehicle in the United States including millions of older vehicles. Modern vehicles are built for higher safety…

They also include miles driven by previous versions of their software in the “safe miles driven” tally. There’s no guarantee any improvement would not have resulted in more accidents. They should reset the counter on every release.

Re: U.S. opens probe into Tesla’s Autopilot over emergency vehicle crashes

#170

Post by SCNP » Mon, Aug 16, 2021, 2:50 PM UTC

mattnewton wrote: post #131

SCNP wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me preface by saying that I hold no strong opinions on this matter and my comments are purely speculative. This is kind of a position I've held for a long time but a different aspect of the problem. I think a system similar to IFF in aircraft would solve all of these issue. If every car knew where every other car was at all times, you could easily devise a system that would be nearly flawless. The issue is, there…

The problem is that you don’t just need to know about every other vehicle, you still need all the perceptual stuff for pedestrians, bikers, baby carriages, trash, road closures, traffic cops in the middle of the road, etc. All those things are arguably harder to detect reliably than a somewhat standard sized box of metal with pairs of lights in the front and back. I think shooting for superhuman perception of all the…

True. I guess I was thinking that if you build totally new infrastructure for these new overhauled cars, you'd keep it completely separate from other modes of transportation. My sci-fi inclinations had me imagining tubes like Logan's Run.