Steve Jobs Sometimes Lies to You • Hacker News Board

Re: Steve Jobs Sometimes Lies to You

#51

Post by drivebyacct2 » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 8:57 PM UTC

Bud wrote: post #35

drivebyacct2 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand. What logic is faulty? Steve made a statement and hasn't followed through, over a year later. That sounds like a lie to me. It's not like he said "We might look into interoperability" or something, it's pretty damn cut and dry from the quote. I remember being giddy about it. Now I'm giddy about WebRTC instead.

What you're choosing not to understand is the operative definition of "lie": lie [lahy] noun, verb, lied, ly·ing. –noun 1. a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.

Sigh, a snarky reply based on a hand chosen definition that is rather irrelevant to the conclusions drawn from this article... An alternative definition that is also commonly accepted, likely listed right next to the one you selected: "an inaccurate or false statement."

It crossed the line when there was no clarification or retraction of the statement. It still stands, and as far as I'm concerned, people making claims on a stage while announcing "visionary" magic, ought to deliver on those commitments, and failure to do so is wrong. Call it lying, call it talking out [his] rear, the point really is the same as far as this discussion is concerned.

Jobs got a lot of positive and excited attention when he said FaceTime was going to be open (with the implication of interoperability). It feels wrong and leaves a bad taste in my mouth. If you want to call it something other than "lying", that's fine.

For example:

http://www.google.com/search?q=facetime+to+be+open+standard

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1411352

Re: Steve Jobs Sometimes Lies to You

#52

Post by Bud » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 9:15 PM UTC

drivebyacct2 wrote: post #51

Bud wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're choosing not to understand is the operative definition of "lie": lie [lahy] noun, verb, lied, ly·ing. –noun 1. a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.

Sigh , a snarky reply based on a hand chosen definition that is rather irrelevant to the conclusions drawn from this article... An alternative definition that is also commonly accepted, likely listed right next to the one you selected: "an inaccurate or false statement." It crossed the line when there was no clarification or retraction of the statement. It still stands, and as far as I'm concerned, people making clai…

Uh, no. It wasn't snarky, despite your downvoting. And no, it wasn't a "hand-chosen" definition. It's the commonly accepted definition, which is why it's listed first in any dictionary you can find. Everyone knows that a statement made in good faith about something like this, which later turns out (perhaps temporarily) to not come true, is not a "lie". A lie necessarily includes intent to lie, in this situation. Once again, you are being intellectually dishonest by not accepting this. It's difficult to debate with those who won't debate honestly.

Do you have any evidence, of any kind, that Jobs did not intend, in good faith, to follow through on his idea of making FaceTime an open standard? No, you don't. If you did, you would post it. Just who is being snarky here?

Let's try another tack: do you even have any made-up theory as to why Jobs would make such an announcement, if he had no intention to follow through? Apparently not, or you would post that, which you haven't.

Lose the ad hominem and participate in the discussion. And no, downvoting is not participation.

Re: Steve Jobs Sometimes Lies to You

#53

Post by bni » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 9:25 PM UTC

rdl wrote: post #28

I might care more if I'd ever actually observed someone using FaceTime. I have 3 MacBooks, an iPad, an iPhone 4, my coworkers and girlfriend and friends have FaceTime compatible devices too, but I've never seen anyone use it. Maybe they don't open it because it is a dead product.

Its great to keep in touch with family when travelling. I use it a lot that way.

Re: Steve Jobs Sometimes Lies to You

#54

Post by drivebyacct2 » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 9:26 PM UTC

Bud wrote: post #52

drivebyacct2 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigh , a snarky reply based on a hand chosen definition that is rather irrelevant to the conclusions drawn from this article... An alternative definition that is also commonly accepted, likely listed right next to the one you selected: "an inaccurate or false statement." It crossed the line when there was no clarification or retraction of the statement. It still stands, and as far as I'm concerned, people making clai…

Uh, no. It wasn't snarky, despite your downvoting. And no, it wasn't a "hand-chosen" definition. It's the commonly accepted definition, which is why it's listed first in any dictionary you can find. Everyone knows that a statement made in good faith about something like this, which later turns out (perhaps temporarily) to not come true, is not a "lie". A lie necessarily includes intent to lie, in this situation. Once…

I have no interest in "arguing" with you in this manner. I wasn't rude, or certainly not intentionally or as much as you are. Besides, you've brought nothing new to discuss and the "label" of the untruth (but not lie) of his statement is irrelevant.

And you should know, it's not possible to downvote child comments, nor would I have anyway.

Re: Steve Jobs Sometimes Lies to You

#55

Post by ryanisinallofus » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 9:28 PM UTC

skue wrote: post #45

ryanisinallofus wrote: post #14

My wife: "Will you take the trash out?" Me: "Yeah, for sure. I'll take it out tonight." Tonight rolls by and the next day she tells me "You didn't take out the trash. You lied." Did I lie? Or did I have honest intentions of taking out the trash with circumstances getting in the way? Maybe I just forgot? I don't presume to know Jobs' intentions but without a history of lying during presentations I'm going to assume hi…

Your analogy isn't quite accurate. Suppose your wife is less prone to accusations (admittedly you know her better than I). Instead of calling you a liar straight off, she simply reminds you, "You didn't take the trash out." You ignore her. She then asks, "Are you still planning to take the trash out?" You ignore her. She starts getting irritated. "Look, you said you were going to take the trash out. Obviously, you li…

That's pretty much what happens!

Re: Steve Jobs Sometimes Lies to You

#56

Post by ara4n » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 9:33 PM UTC

At least Apple's failure to deliver on their promises on Open FaceTime leaves an opening for other folks to deliver (e.g. http://jointheseen.com/sdk)

Re: Steve Jobs Sometimes Lies to You

#57

Post by 18pfsmt » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 9:33 PM UTC

wtracy wrote: post #33

jm4 wrote: post #25

I'm genuinely curious why it even matters whether it's open or not. I get that he said it would be open and now it's not. But beyond that why does it even matter? I can use Tango, Qik, Skype, etc. I think there's an iOS app out there that does Google Talk video. They are even easier because I don't have to explain to my parents how to connect the phone to wifi. Maybe with the proliferation of all these other video ch…

None of them inter-operate. So, when you have a friend on Tango, a friend on Qik, and a friend on Skype, you have to install Tango, Qik and Skype. We don't have a single protocol for everyone to standardize on, and we don't even have enough access to the various protocols to build a Trillian-like client that supports everything.

We don't have a single protocol for everyone to standardize on, and we don't even have enough access to the various protocols to build a Trillian-like client that supports everything.

I thought both XMPP and SIP were supposed to solve that problem. What happened?

Re: Steve Jobs Sometimes Lies to You

#58

Post by benihana » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 9:34 PM UTC

Didn't Apple do something similar when they forked KHTML? I think it took them a few years to make it completely open source after they said they would.

Re: Steve Jobs Sometimes Lies to You

#59

Post by 18pfsmt » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 9:38 PM UTC

jgh wrote: post #44

Oh gosh, I'm glad all these good people on HN have lined up to defend Steve Jobs, I don't know what I would do if I found out that he, at any point in time, lied to me. I would just... I would probably faint. Just thinking about that possibility has made me all lightheaded. I need a fan. I need to sit down. Steve Jobs will not lie to me! He is a good man! He makes the devices I crave! Electrolytes!

I sense a bit of disrespect for the community in which you opt-in in order to participate here. In general, HN is the most logical and reasonable internet community I have ever come across outside of NNTP (certainly on the web). Please don't make this community "snark-central".

EDIT to add: Curious what the counter arguments to mine look like.

Re: Steve Jobs Sometimes Lies to You

#60

Post by delinka » Thu, Jul 28, 2011, 9:40 PM UTC

juliano_q wrote: post #30

I think Facetime is already open. You can use it on your Mac, on your iPhone, on your iPad. Looks like this is open to Steve Jobs, open to all your iOS devices. Why would you need to have another kind of device anyway?

You make an important observation. I recall an email exchange[1] between a reporter and Jobs about "freedom." He does not define words the way we tend to define words. He defines them as a CEO in the corporate world whose company uses marketing to its benefit.

[1] http://gawker.com/5539717/steve-jobs-offers-world-freedom-fr...