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Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

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Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#81

Post by adventured »

leereeves wrote: post #80
deanCommie wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's the only time I've seen large scale street violence. I don't think it belongs in a civilized society. "...more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" [1] - Martin Luther King, Jr. I wasn…

That quote could be [mis]used to defend any movement, but I don't recall MLK leading people in helmets, carrying shields, to violently confront police, without even making a clear statement of what they want. MLK was very clear about what he meant by "justice", never tried to hide his identity, and didn't respond with violence. "Antifa", on the other hand, aren't even honest about what they want. They call themselves…

Anarchists of that sort are only such until they acquire structural power, then they immediately become the new, organized, violently oppressive authoritarian power. It's why Antifa so resembles the fascism they claim to oppose. That exact switch happened repeatedly across the 20th century. An organized anarchist movement is something close to an oxymoron, a facade at best, for people lusting for the power to implement their own vision of how things should be (while using that particular appeal to lure followers). The people that were responsible for installing Lenin's famines and ultimately Stalin, would of course tell you they also meant well (akin to someone claiming they mean you no harm while they break your skull).

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#82

Post by Barrin92 »

codeulike wrote: post #3

The idea of a city split into two by ideologically opposing factions, and the split being marked by a big wall, sounds like sci-fi now. Also, the idea that a physical barrier could affect the spread of information. Its interesting how much of 20th century history centers on Berlin. There's a wall museum in Berlin, well worth visiting. Edit: thanks for the reminders about contemporary split cities, sobering to think a…

>sounds like sci-fi now

if you actually want the speculative fiction version and the concept taken to the extreme, you're in luck

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_City_%26_the_City

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#83

Post by deanCommie »

leereeves wrote: post #80
deanCommie wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's the only time I've seen large scale street violence. I don't think it belongs in a civilized society. "...more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" [1] - Martin Luther King, Jr. I wasn…

That quote could be [mis]used to defend any movement, but I don't recall MLK leading people in helmets, carrying shields, to violently confront police, without even making a clear statement of what they want. MLK was very clear about what he meant by "justice", never tried to hide his identity, and didn't respond with violence. "Antifa", on the other hand, aren't even honest about what they want. They call themselves…

The current American Antifa movement sprung up in direct confrontation to a government that was intent on violating every norm of democratic governance, and forcing through regulations and laws that were borderline fascist.

Trump's America absolutely was heading in a fascist direction by the strict definition of the term ("a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition").

While there is no one single organized Antifa leadership or central planning, the participants were generally united by a truly genuine goal of resistance to fascism.

And violence only broke out when instigated by the state forces, bolstered by the knowledge that local, state, and federal governments are in support of them.

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#84

Post by relativ575 »

pomian wrote: post #50
codeulike wrote: post #3

The idea of a city split into two by ideologically opposing factions, and the split being marked by a big wall, sounds like sci-fi now. Also, the idea that a physical barrier could affect the spread of information. Its interesting how much of 20th century history centers on Berlin. There's a wall museum in Berlin, well worth visiting. Edit: thanks for the reminders about contemporary split cities, sobering to think a…

Mexico USA border seems to a pretty strong example of a contemporary wall. Imagine what would happen if it was completely removed?

Border wall is nothing new and not that rare. They are often used to stop illegal immigrants. Just an example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_border_barrier

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#85

Post by evanb »

ipaddr wrote: post #57
sdoering wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did. Same with the US inviting Third Reich scientists. Or BND, CIA, MI5 and others inviting HVA (Stasi foreign spy agency) people into their ranks. What, except maybe that states are immoral and opportunistic, does these things tell us? I am not sure. Maybe I am missing net positive things as outcomes from these behaviors. But to me neither example is good.

Using those scientists to made the bomb to end the war was one positive outcome.

The Operation Paperclip scientists helped build rockets for the post-war era. Not bombs.

The German / Austrian / Hungarian scientists that worked on the bomb came to the US years before the Manhattan project started.

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#86

Post by leereeves »

deanCommie wrote: post #83
leereeves wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That quote could be [mis]used to defend any movement, but I don't recall MLK leading people in helmets, carrying shields, to violently confront police, without even making a clear statement of what they want. MLK was very clear about what he meant by "justice", never tried to hide his identity, and didn't respond with violence. "Antifa", on the other hand, aren't even honest about what they want. They call themselves…

The current American Antifa movement sprung up in direct confrontation to a government that was intent on violating every norm of democratic governance, and forcing through regulations and laws that were borderline fascist. Trump's America absolutely was heading in a fascist direction by the strict definition of the term ("a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and often race above the individ…

I thought we were talking about "an antifa vs police standoff in Berlin" 15 years ago.

But if you insist on talking about America, let me cite a recent example of Antifa dishonestly labeling anything they oppose "fascist".

Antifa rioters attacked a protest against vaccine mandates yesterday in Los Angeles. They sprayed mace on the protestors and one protestor was stabbed. They claimed the protestors were fascists and billed their response as "no safe space for fascists".

However anyone may feel about vaccine mandates, I challenge them to justify calling opposition to vaccine mandates "fascist".

The really troubling thing about Antifa is that because they label everything they oppose "fascist", they feel justified using any measure to oppose it, like spraying mace and stabbing people.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-08-14/anti-vax...

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/person-stabbed-vaccinat...

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#87

Post by refurb »

flohofwoe wrote: post #40
pydry wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC west germany did end up welcoming some nazis back into government positions so from their standpoint it probably seemed fairly reasonable. There were still Nazis everywhere in postwar berlin.

East Germany did that too in the early years for building up their "inofficial army" (called "Kasernierte Volkspolizei") before the "official" NVA (National People's Army) was founded in 1956. After that they mostly got rid of old Nazis in the army though, at least the high-ranking ones. In general, the more specialist and "valuable" an old Nazi was, the more it was likely that his history was quickly forgotten, also…

Exactly. Both sides did this as it’s hard to defeat a country then build it back up when you exclude everyone who who was in the old govt (many who joined the Nazi party for non-ideological reasons).

If you dig into the history it’s pretty interesting. The USSR and France I believe were adamant about de-Nazification, but petered out quickly when they realized it was holding up rebuilding the country. The US and UK weren’t too worried about lower level Nazi’s once the leaders and major war criminals were handled.

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#88

Post by sdoering »

ipaddr wrote: post #57
sdoering wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did. Same with the US inviting Third Reich scientists. Or BND, CIA, MI5 and others inviting HVA (Stasi foreign spy agency) people into their ranks. What, except maybe that states are immoral and opportunistic, does these things tell us? I am not sure. Maybe I am missing net positive things as outcomes from these behaviors. But to me neither example is good.

Using those scientists to made the bomb to end the war was one positive outcome.

The idea that the bombs on Hiroshima and/or Nagasaki shortened the war in a significant way is in historic sciences at least contested.

I remember my professor at University arguing against the fact that this idea was presented as proven fact, when there were many question in the scientific community.

Not sure how maybe newer evidence might have changed it. I would need to dive into the actual scientific literature to update my knowledge of the topic.

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#89

Post by usr1106 »

flohofwoe wrote: post #21
usr1106 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Korea. While it's not in the middle of the capital, it's not that far. And the border is much tighter than the Berlin wall has ever been.

I don't know about that, trying to cross the border had/has a high chance of being shot to death, both in the GDR and (AFAIK) in North Korea. East Germany even had automated the whole killing part: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selbstschussanlage (I haven't found the matching article on the English Wikipedia, sorry)

I know that. But there was always some travelling over the Inner-German border. Not convenient at all for those wanting to travel from the East, could lead to losing your job and even imprisonment until the West paid to get you free years later. But possible for those who were persistent enough and accepted the sometimes severe consequences. In Korea even that is not enough.

Re: Berlin, a divided city. The events of 60 years ago

#90

Post by flohofwoe »

usr1106 wrote: post #89
flohofwoe wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about that, trying to cross the border had/has a high chance of being shot to death, both in the GDR and (AFAIK) in North Korea. East Germany even had automated the whole killing part: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selbstschussanlage (I haven't found the matching article on the English Wikipedia, sorry)

I know that. But there was always some travelling over the Inner-German border. Not convenient at all for those wanting to travel from the East, could lead to losing your job and even imprisonment until the West paid to get you free years later. But possible for those who were persistent enough and accepted the sometimes severe consequences. In Korea even that is not enough.

Only pensioners got an exception and could travel from East to West to visit family. Everybody else had to try their luck digging tunnels (mostly in Berlin in the 60s), over the Baltic Sea or make it through the "Death Strip" alive, all ending very likely in death or if they're lucky, imprisonment (one of my uncles and his wife ended up with a 10-year prison sentence for trying to flee over the Hungarian border, and were eventually "bought out" by the West).

Travel from West to East was unrestricted of course.

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