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Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

cbc.ca

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Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#131

Post by cardiffspaceman »

totony wrote: post #74
SECProto wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These persons still have the right to choose what goes in their body, be it alcohol or vaccine. The choice just has certain consequences on available transportation methods.

Why does exercising your right have consequences? If we go that way, why not just jail them? ("You have a right to choose, but if you do you're going to a quarantine facility")

Exercising your rights has always had consequences, when your rights involve actions that interfere with the rights of others. The U.S. Supreme Court archives are full of examples and analogies.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#132

Post by ghaff »

daenz wrote: post #119
rsynnott wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both those things are true, though. In fact, both are true of most vaccines that are actually in use; perfect vaccines are rare.

Please explain how something "is X" and "is not X" at the same time, without changing the definition of X between assertions, and without referring to quantum superposition.

It seems obvious that many medical treatments/pre-treatments clearly lead to generally good outcomes (or are at least better than the untreated case) while many of them are still less effective or have more side effects than we would like.

We can say the same thing in many domains. Modern car safety has improved a lot and makes cars from a few decades ago look like deathtraps in comparison. But way too many people still die on roads so we're constantly trying to make improvements.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#133

Post by jorgesborges »

graeme wrote: post #121
jorgesborges wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone who opposes a vaccine passport belongs to an "antivax" crowd. I've encountered a lot of a variance on the issue, often in surprising contexts. I was at the dentist last week and after vetting me mildly she explained there's a faction of their practice who oppose mandatory vaccines. She said they formed a group to share and discuss the issue and engage with other health care professionals who may not be a…

No but about 80% of adults are vaccinated and about 70% in Canada support vaccine passport. So there isn’t much wiggle room. Unless a good swath of the unvaccinated support vaccine passports….

That's true. I suppose my only skepticism surrounds the 70% polling in favor of passports. That seems very high. But my skepticism rests on anecdotal experiences so that doesn't mean much -- and admittedly I haven't looked closely into the polling data. But I am frustrated with the smoothing over the nuances of the issue by lumping people into a certain crowd. I think there's merit in an anti-passport position without falling into lunacy.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#134

Post by AdrianB1 »

graeme wrote: post #121
jorgesborges wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone who opposes a vaccine passport belongs to an "antivax" crowd. I've encountered a lot of a variance on the issue, often in surprising contexts. I was at the dentist last week and after vetting me mildly she explained there's a faction of their practice who oppose mandatory vaccines. She said they formed a group to share and discuss the issue and engage with other health care professionals who may not be a…

No but about 80% of adults are vaccinated and about 70% in Canada support vaccine passport. So there isn’t much wiggle room. Unless a good swath of the unvaccinated support vaccine passports….

I am fully vaccinated and I am trying to convince all the people I interact with face to face to vaccinate, but I still don't want to send to Gulag all the people who refuse. Even if 99% support something, it does not automatically make it right.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#135

Post by moistly »

jorgesborges wrote: post #108
graeme wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you hang out in an antivax crowd? Vaccine passport are enormously popular in Canada. https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/majority-support-vacc... I couldn’t find Quebec specific data, but I live here and haven’t seen anything to suggest people view them differently.

Not everyone who opposes a vaccine passport belongs to an "antivax" crowd. I've encountered a lot of a variance on the issue, often in surprising contexts. I was at the dentist last week and after vetting me mildly she explained there's a faction of their practice who oppose mandatory vaccines. She said they formed a group to share and discuss the issue and engage with other health care professionals who may not be a…

One notes that in BC/Western Canada, dentists gathered en masse at a convention while case rates were cranking upward. A shit-ton of them caught covid. One also notes that for decades, they’ve been working on people’s mouths, spraying nasty oral bacteria into the air, without wearing masks. What I’m saying here is that dentists have never been particularly intelligent about their own health safety.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#136

Post by kingofpandora »

moistly wrote: post #135
jorgesborges wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone who opposes a vaccine passport belongs to an "antivax" crowd. I've encountered a lot of a variance on the issue, often in surprising contexts. I was at the dentist last week and after vetting me mildly she explained there's a faction of their practice who oppose mandatory vaccines. She said they formed a group to share and discuss the issue and engage with other health care professionals who may not be a…

One notes that in BC/Western Canada, dentists gathered en masse at a convention while case rates were cranking upward. A shit-ton of them caught covid. One also notes that for decades, they’ve been working on people’s mouths, spraying nasty oral bacteria into the air, without wearing masks. What I’m saying here is that dentists have never been particularly intelligent about their own health safety.

My dentists/hygienists in Canada have been using masks for quite some time now.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#137

Post by Gibbon1 »

kingofpandora wrote: post #136
moistly wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One notes that in BC/Western Canada, dentists gathered en masse at a convention while case rates were cranking upward. A shit-ton of them caught covid. One also notes that for decades, they’ve been working on people’s mouths, spraying nasty oral bacteria into the air, without wearing masks. What I’m saying here is that dentists have never been particularly intelligent about their own health safety.

My dentists/hygienists in Canada have been using masks for quite some time now.

My dentist has been wearing gloves, eye protection, and a mask for the last 15 years.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#138

Post by jorgesborges »

moistly wrote: post #135
jorgesborges wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone who opposes a vaccine passport belongs to an "antivax" crowd. I've encountered a lot of a variance on the issue, often in surprising contexts. I was at the dentist last week and after vetting me mildly she explained there's a faction of their practice who oppose mandatory vaccines. She said they formed a group to share and discuss the issue and engage with other health care professionals who may not be a…

One notes that in BC/Western Canada, dentists gathered en masse at a convention while case rates were cranking upward. A shit-ton of them caught covid. One also notes that for decades, they’ve been working on people’s mouths, spraying nasty oral bacteria into the air, without wearing masks. What I’m saying here is that dentists have never been particularly intelligent about their own health safety.

Good point. Of course I happen to live in BC. I forgot about that one.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#139

Post by carthusian »

GekkePrutser wrote: post #98
carthusian wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Natural immunity (which I already have) provides a much more generic defense because it targets all parts of the spike protein, and presumably other parts of the virus itself, many of which hardly mutate. Vaccinal immunity targets only the receptor-binding domain of the spike protein. The RBD is, in fact, the most rapidly mutating part of the virus. Therefore it is highly feasible that ADE will only affect the vaccin…

The vaccine prevents serious illness in many cases so I think this is a good argument in favour of vaccination. People can go around and catch covid, build up more natural immunity while not running all the risks from the start of the pandemic.

Even if vaccine prevents serious illness from the current strains, the ADE hypothesis is that the vaccine will enhance illness for future strains.

Also, once you get the vaccine, you don't build up more natural immunity. That's the point. The vaccinal immune response discourages the immune system from mounting a defense to the novel strain, instead it just pumps out antibodies for the Wuhan strain encoded in the vaccination. In the future, if these Wuhan antibodies cannot bind the new strains, the situation is obviously very dangerous, and much worse than not being vaccinated at all.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#140

Post by dukeofdoom »

This needs to be legally challenged. No way does this not violate charter of rights and freedoms and probably Nuremberg codes.

If you let a government force or punitively coerce its people to put a drug in their body for a disease with less than 1% mortality, same magnitude as a flue. You no longer have bodily autonomy. You're a slave to the state. They can do anything they want in the future, under any nebulas threat they want.

Keep in mind that a much more reasonable alternative already exists of just letting people be tested before boarding.

The principal of informed consent must be preserved. A person should make medical decisions with their doctor, and be informed of the risks and benefits and then chose freely.

The ability for people to travel, and see their loved ones, opportunity to work and live where they want is what distinguishes free societies from those that are oppressive and murderous.

The hallmark of the rise of authoritarian states, and one of the first rights to be taken away it the ability to travel freely.

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