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Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

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Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#81
post #71
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace vaccinated by any race. Does that sound good? I say that in a non-facetious way to expose bias. We don't say "you have the right to X, BUT if you use that right you don't have the right to do what everyone else does." That's not a right. "You have a right to free expression, but if you express dissent you are barred from using the Internet (it's too dangerous!)".

You choose whether to be vaccinated. You don't choose race and other protected classes. You have a constitutional right to free speech with some limitations explored by the Supreme Court over the years. The same Supreme Court (different individuals obviously) who established that Massachusetts could fine individuals who refused to take the smallpox vaccine.

Fair, then they don't have a right to be vaccinated or not (at least in the US). And it's false to say we "support their right."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts seems to suggest that also.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#82
post #42
post #9

It's likely because of the election. Trudeau is calling for an election in the next few weeks. By announcing this now, he dares the opposition to say it's the wrong move, so that he can say he's protecting Canadians and the conservatives won't. Keep me in charge to stay safe. Only 10% of Canadians are opposed to vaccines, so it won't be an unpopular choice. And if the opposition says it's the right move, he can say "…

At least in quebec vaccine passports are seen in a super bad light (at least to most people i have interacted with). But yeah it's for sure an election tactic, hiding more important discussion like how they threw away their promise to reform the electoral system (EDIT: Probably because it makes them lose [1]) [1] https://theconversation.com/what-the-canadian-election-resul...

Complete opposite interactions for vaccine passports and I live in Saint-Remi, Quebec.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#83
post #78
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

40% of the Canadian population is unvaccinated, approximately 15 million people.

71.744% of the Canadian population has received at least one dose 82.404% of Canadians 12+ have received at least one dose Source: https://covid19tracker.ca/vaccinationtracker.html

So the >80% is for 12 and older.

https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/vaccination-cover...

For the whole population, it's a bit over 60% so the "misinformation" you're referring to is approximately correct.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#84
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did mention in my comment above that children of smokers don't have a choice being around second hand smoke. Yet most governments consider the harm to the health of the child to be less critical than the smoker's individual freedom to smoke. I'm not some freedom loving libertarian, I'm normally quite left leaning, but the dual standards I see applied by governments here really bother me. I can't help but think thei…

No one is taking away the children of anti-vaxxers, they are saying you can’t use public transportation. The same principle is at play: you can live you life in a way that negatively impacts the health of your children, because you have authority over your children. But when it becomes a threat to others that aren’t in your stewardship, you no longer have that freedom. What is the double standard here? You aren’t eve…

> You aren’t even comparing the same situations.

We've gotten quite far from the original point; I'll reply once more but probably not again on this branch because we seem to have a fundamental disagreement over whether governments should have the right to mandate (either de-jour or de-facto) medical interventions on people in return for the ability to take part in society.

Governments can't mandate for every eventuality, they have to make policies covering broad areas. We're discussing public health policy here, i.e. the ways in which governments can reduce harmful effects on the health of the populace through rules and regulations. My point was that if governments truly cared about public health, they would have already for example banned smoking universally (or at least in situations where there is another person within X meters of the smoker), since second hand smoke is a demonstrable cause of premature death. The justification would be one of public health. And if anything, such a policy would be even less controversial than mandating vaccines because a smoker can simply stop smoking temporarily to be around other people whereas people cannot stop breathing and therefore potentially spreading viruses. Yet it seems governments have skipped over all of these easier public health issues, and gone straight to mandating that people get vaccinated to enter publicly funded places from a public health justification. To me, regardless of how effective or not these mandates have been and are, I smell bullshit when I hear governments justifying such rules with public health arguments because they have not from their previous actions demonstrated that they are merely following through with their public health manifesto. I rather fear they're mandating vaccines to enter public spaces because the public demanded something be done. Governments in representative democracies aren't doing their job if they do merely that which the public want; they are supposed to lead even if the majority of the public disagree.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#85
post #42
post #9

It's likely because of the election. Trudeau is calling for an election in the next few weeks. By announcing this now, he dares the opposition to say it's the wrong move, so that he can say he's protecting Canadians and the conservatives won't. Keep me in charge to stay safe. Only 10% of Canadians are opposed to vaccines, so it won't be an unpopular choice. And if the opposition says it's the right move, he can say "…

At least in quebec vaccine passports are seen in a super bad light (at least to most people i have interacted with). But yeah it's for sure an election tactic, hiding more important discussion like how they threw away their promise to reform the electoral system (EDIT: Probably because it makes them lose [1]) [1] https://theconversation.com/what-the-canadian-election-resul...

Do you hang out in an antivax crowd?

Vaccine passport are enormously popular in Canada.

https://www.ipsos.com/en-ca/news-polls/majority-support-vacc...

I couldn’t find Quebec specific data, but I live here and haven’t seen anything to suggest people view them differently.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#86
post #77
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even in the US, I think you'd find there was significantly greater than 10% support for vaccine mandates for certain activities, jobs, etc.

GP said "everyone" - meaning police showing up at people's doorsteps, pinning them down, and giving them shots.

Mandatory means different things to different people. A few may view mandatory in the holding people down light. Which I assume very few people would be in favor of outside of perhaps very limited situations.

But it's more common to view mandatory as something more along the lines of if you don't get vaccinated (barring medical exemptions) fine but a lot of places--perhaps including where you work--will be closed to you.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#87
post #83
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

71.744% of the Canadian population has received at least one dose 82.404% of Canadians 12+ have received at least one dose Source: https://covid19tracker.ca/vaccinationtracker.html

So the >80% is for 12 and older. https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/vaccination-cover... For the whole population, it's a bit over 60% so the "misinformation" you're referring to is approximately correct.

No, the numbers I gave are the numbers for receiving the first dose.

OP did not say fully vaccinated but instead having been vaccinated. Are you not vaccinated once you have one dose? If not, what verb would you use after receiving your first dose?

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#88
post #14

It's been established that vaccinated people can get Covid and that they can infect others. Just yesterday - an outbreak on a cruise ship: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/galvesto... This is a pointless exercise, people must get vaccinated to reduce the load on the healthcare system, but widespread vaccination on its own won't make enclosed spaces safe.

I don't understand this attitude. Yes vaccines aren't 100% perfct but they are a whole lot better than nothing. Same as masks. It's not "pointless" at all, it's a government taking totally reasonable measures to ensure the greatest good for the greatest number. Nothing is ever going to be 100% safe, but to not take obvious measures to increase safety is negligent. I just have no sympathy for the anti-vaccine crowd an…

> I don't understand this attitude. Yes vaccines aren't 100% perfct but they are a whole lot better than nothing. Same as masks.

This is only true for both if there are no side effects to doing either of them. If there are side effects, and there are, then it is not that simple.

I don't know why, but with COVID, people seem to have conveniently forgotten that in science, all factors matter. [1]

[1]: https://gavinhoward.com/2020/08/in-science-all-factors-matte...

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#89
post #87
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the >80% is for 12 and older. https://health-infobase.canada.ca/covid-19/vaccination-cover... For the whole population, it's a bit over 60% so the "misinformation" you're referring to is approximately correct.

No, the numbers I gave are the numbers for receiving the first dose. OP did not say fully vaccinated but instead having been vaccinated. Are you not vaccinated once you have one dose? If not, what verb would you use after receiving your first dose?

You're being pedantic. "Vaccinated" as it's used, for example, by organizations requiring vaccinations is to have had both doses (in the case of the 2 dose vaccines) and wait the two weeks or whatever after the second dose. At that point, you're considered vaccinated and not before.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#90
post #49
post #44

Does this include international travelers? Is it legal to prevent someone from going back to their country if they are not vaccinated? What about incoming passengers? Are they going to have ties with all incoming airlines to check vaccination status?

Legal is what the government of a given country says is legal. My understanding is that New Zealand for example allows returning travelers but they have to stay in designated quarantine hotels and those are basically unavailable.

I meant the scenario where a Canadian resident but non-citizen wants to return to his country, but he's not vaccinated. Is the Canadian government going to prevent him from boarding a plane?
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