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Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

cbc.ca

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Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#11

Post by jeromegv »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #8

It's been established that vaccinated people can get Covid and that they can infect others. Just yesterday - an outbreak on a cruise ship: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/galvesto... This is a pointless exercise, people must get vaccinated to reduce the load on the healthcare system, but widespread vaccination on its own won't make enclosed spaces safe.

Just stop twisting the truth. Yes vaccinated people can get covid, but at a much lower rate, and when they do, they spread it less. In fact in Ontario (largest province in Canada), you are 30x more likely to get COVID if you are unvaccinated (and 50x more likely to get in the ICU).

Source https://twitter.com/EdTubb/status/1426182876383612931

and

https://data.ontario.ca/dataset/covid-19-vaccine-data-in-ont...

And everyone vaccinated that got COVID on that cruise had low or no symptoms, which is a pretty good outcome if you compare to all those unvaccinated people in hospitals in Florida right now.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#12

Post by fzzzy »

cdot2 wrote: post #10
underseacables wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is actually paying for all of this? America is giving away doses, but for some reason I can’t fathom the drug companies doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. If there’s all this money laying around for COVID doses, ad everybody gets a shot no questions asked, maybe they could put that same energy behind insulin!

Theyre printing money to pay for everything which is causing massive inflation.

So basically everyone with a current cash position is paying for it.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#13

Post by jeromegv »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #4

It’s surprising since an 81% vaccination rate is already near the top of forecasts. Will a 90% or 95% rate make that much of a difference to justify forcing people to do so?

It's actually 63% of the full population that is double-vaccinated in Canada. Yes some of those are not eligible (kids), but still a big amount of people are eligible and not taking it.

https://twitter.com/redouad/status/1426486746058006531

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#14

Post by sho »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #8

It's been established that vaccinated people can get Covid and that they can infect others. Just yesterday - an outbreak on a cruise ship: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/galvesto... This is a pointless exercise, people must get vaccinated to reduce the load on the healthcare system, but widespread vaccination on its own won't make enclosed spaces safe.

I don't understand this attitude. Yes vaccines aren't 100% perfct but they are a whole lot better than nothing. Same as masks.

It's not "pointless" at all, it's a government taking totally reasonable measures to ensure the greatest good for the greatest number. Nothing is ever going to be 100% safe, but to not take obvious measures to increase safety is negligent.

I just have no sympathy for the anti-vaccine crowd and their wilful ignorance and bad faith arguments. Fine, it's your right to not get vaccinated. It's everyone else's right to prevent your recalcitrant ass from affecting others with your ridiculous theories and bad decision-making.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#15

Post by ghiculescu »

sho wrote: post #14
HarryHirsch wrote: post #8

It's been established that vaccinated people can get Covid and that they can infect others. Just yesterday - an outbreak on a cruise ship: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/galvesto... This is a pointless exercise, people must get vaccinated to reduce the load on the healthcare system, but widespread vaccination on its own won't make enclosed spaces safe.

I don't understand this attitude. Yes vaccines aren't 100% perfct but they are a whole lot better than nothing. Same as masks. It's not "pointless" at all, it's a government taking totally reasonable measures to ensure the greatest good for the greatest number. Nothing is ever going to be 100% safe, but to not take obvious measures to increase safety is negligent. I just have no sympathy for the anti-vaccine crowd an…

I think it was a reasonable question, which I read as:

If I am vaccinated, and you are not, what do I gain from forcing you to get vaccinated? I am equally highly protected either way, right?

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#16

Post by sleavey »

jeromegv wrote: post #11
HarryHirsch wrote: post #8

It's been established that vaccinated people can get Covid and that they can infect others. Just yesterday - an outbreak on a cruise ship: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/galvesto... This is a pointless exercise, people must get vaccinated to reduce the load on the healthcare system, but widespread vaccination on its own won't make enclosed spaces safe.

Just stop twisting the truth. Yes vaccinated people can get covid, but at a much lower rate, and when they do, they spread it less. In fact in Ontario (largest province in Canada), you are 30x more likely to get COVID if you are unvaccinated (and 50x more likely to get in the ICU). Source https://twitter.com/EdTubb/status/1426182876383612931 and https://data.ontario.ca/dataset/covid-19-vaccine-data-in-ont... And ever…

I'm not an expert in this field but I am a scientist and have been looking at the various data released on this point, because it's foundational to the reasoning behind the push for universal vaccination using unapproved drugs. I think that which you say is being twisted, the "truth", doesn't yet exist on this topic. We simply don't have scientific consensus yet on whether the current vaccines are fully neutralising. Lots of conflicting data for experts to untangle. I would not start calling people truth twisters until we know more. As an example of scientific studies with opposite conclusions to those you linked, see e.g. the links in the fourth paragraph here [1]. The fifth paragraph also provides a hypothesis as to why the vaccines aren't fully neutralising.

[1] https://www.hartgroup.org/vaccination-prevents-transmission-...

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#17

Post by sho »

ghiculescu wrote: post #15
sho wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this attitude. Yes vaccines aren't 100% perfct but they are a whole lot better than nothing. Same as masks. It's not "pointless" at all, it's a government taking totally reasonable measures to ensure the greatest good for the greatest number. Nothing is ever going to be 100% safe, but to not take obvious measures to increase safety is negligent. I just have no sympathy for the anti-vaccine crowd an…

I think it was a reasonable question, which I read as: If I am vaccinated, and you are not, what do I gain from forcing you to get vaccinated? I am equally highly protected either way, right?

No, you are not. If I am not vaccinated I am far more likely to carry the virus to you, and your vaccine, while good, is not 100% protection. So you have a significant decrease in your risk by forcing me to be vaccinated.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#18

Post by HarryHirsch »

jeromegv wrote: post #11
HarryHirsch wrote: post #8

It's been established that vaccinated people can get Covid and that they can infect others. Just yesterday - an outbreak on a cruise ship: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/galvesto... This is a pointless exercise, people must get vaccinated to reduce the load on the healthcare system, but widespread vaccination on its own won't make enclosed spaces safe.

Just stop twisting the truth. Yes vaccinated people can get covid, but at a much lower rate, and when they do, they spread it less. In fact in Ontario (largest province in Canada), you are 30x more likely to get COVID if you are unvaccinated (and 50x more likely to get in the ICU). Source https://twitter.com/EdTubb/status/1426182876383612931 and https://data.ontario.ca/dataset/covid-19-vaccine-data-in-ont... And ever…

I'm deeply uncomfortable with the picture all the anecdotes paint. Closer to home, a colleague reports that her sister-in-law brought Covid home from a conference and then have it to her husband. Both were vaccinated (Pfizer/J&J).

Yes, being vaccinated keeps out out of hospital and out of a coffin, that's enough reason to get the shot. But it doesn't prevent synptomatic infection as well as we've been told (latest numbers indicate 50 % efficacy against Delta), and there's still the risk of long Covid (~ 20 %). The older you are and the longer ago yhour shot was the greater the risk.

We need to limit large gatherings again and increase ventilation. I work at a university and am frankly sick of being asked to take risks to my health while others can hide out until there's the Delta/Lambda booster, all in the name of propping up the value of commercial real estate.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#19

Post by mensetmanusman »

fzzzy wrote: post #12
cdot2 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Theyre printing money to pay for everything which is causing massive inflation.

So basically everyone with a current cash position is paying for it.

Yes, but it is also an investment, albeit a forced one. For example, if we didn’t do this the economy would crater and everyone would be poorer.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#20

Post by sleavey »

sho wrote: post #17
ghiculescu wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it was a reasonable question, which I read as: If I am vaccinated, and you are not, what do I gain from forcing you to get vaccinated? I am equally highly protected either way, right?

No, you are not. If I am not vaccinated I am far more likely to carry the virus to you, and your vaccine, while good, is not 100% protection. So you have a significant decrease in your risk by forcing me to be vaccinated.

Do we apply this thinking to any other public health threats? Smoking for example, particularly for those forced to be around smokers like their children? I'm curious to hear the arguments for why this virus needs to be treated differently to all others that have come before, and to other public health issues.

Not trying to start a fight here. I just haven't been convinced yet why our old behaviour towards threats like CoV-2 doesn't apply to it itself.

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