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Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

cbc.ca

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Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#41

Post by bart_spoon »

carthusian wrote: post #29
sho wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this attitude. Yes vaccines aren't 100% perfct but they are a whole lot better than nothing. Same as masks. It's not "pointless" at all, it's a government taking totally reasonable measures to ensure the greatest good for the greatest number. Nothing is ever going to be 100% safe, but to not take obvious measures to increase safety is negligent. I just have no sympathy for the anti-vaccine crowd an…

>Yes vaccines aren't 100% perfct but they are a whole lot better than nothing. Not if ADE happens with future strains, and the evidence is mounting that it will.

If ADE happens with future strains, then it won’t matter if you are vaccinated or not, because unvaccinated individuals are absolutely guaranteed to get Covid eventually. Covid is never going away at this point, and it’s transmission levels are as high as just about any disease we’ve encountered. Short of completely retreating from society and building a survival bunker in the woods, you won’t escape ADE if it becomes an issue, so it’s not a valid argument against vaccination. If anything it is an argument for vaccination, since a highly vaccinated population will reduce the rate of mutation.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#42

Post by totony »

mabbo wrote: post #9

It's likely because of the election. Trudeau is calling for an election in the next few weeks. By announcing this now, he dares the opposition to say it's the wrong move, so that he can say he's protecting Canadians and the conservatives won't. Keep me in charge to stay safe. Only 10% of Canadians are opposed to vaccines, so it won't be an unpopular choice. And if the opposition says it's the right move, he can say "…

At least in quebec vaccine passports are seen in a super bad light (at least to most people i have interacted with). But yeah it's for sure an election tactic, hiding more important discussion like how they threw away their promise to reform the electoral system (EDIT: Probably because it makes them lose [1])

[1] https://theconversation.com/what-the-canadian-election-resul...

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#43

Post by fabbari »

sleavey wrote: post #16
jeromegv wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just stop twisting the truth. Yes vaccinated people can get covid, but at a much lower rate, and when they do, they spread it less. In fact in Ontario (largest province in Canada), you are 30x more likely to get COVID if you are unvaccinated (and 50x more likely to get in the ICU). Source https://twitter.com/EdTubb/status/1426182876383612931 and https://data.ontario.ca/dataset/covid-19-vaccine-data-in-ont... And ever…

I'm not an expert in this field but I am a scientist and have been looking at the various data released on this point, because it's foundational to the reasoning behind the push for universal vaccination using unapproved drugs. I think that which you say is being twisted, the "truth", doesn't yet exist on this topic. We simply don't have scientific consensus yet on whether the current vaccines are fully neutralising.…

Did you actually look at the data? Deaths in Israel went from over a 1400 in the month of January to 20 in July, with a vaccination rate of [0] 67%. I would say that that's a pretty darn good result, wouldn't you?

Again, from the data in your link: 91.4% efficacy against severe Covid - IE: ventilators or death, 88% efficacy against hospitalization. I'll take those chances.

The kicker for the article is quoting an "epidemiologist" - Andrew Bostom - that is not one. His argument: Israel sees a high percentage of deaths due to Covid among the vaccinated, ergo the CDC data is wrong. Omitting that Israel deaths are less than 1/10th of what they were in January, while in the U.S. they are at 1/3. So - as you may guess - not really close.

You won't get scientific consensus if you reject the numbers that don't support your theory.

I have been fully vaccinated and I do still wear a mask in public - following CDC guidelines put into place because we know that the vaccine is not fully neutralizing.

Is the vaccine a silver bullet? No. Does it save lives? Yes - in 98% of the cases.

[0] https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#45

Post by totony »

maxerickson wrote: post #23
MichaelZuo wrote: post #4

It’s surprising since an 81% vaccination rate is already near the top of forecasts. Will a 90% or 95% rate make that much of a difference to justify forcing people to do so?

People are being forced to forgo transportation, they are not being forcibly vaccinated.

/s ?

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#46

Post by seanmcdirmid »

ghiculescu wrote: post #15
sho wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this attitude. Yes vaccines aren't 100% perfct but they are a whole lot better than nothing. Same as masks. It's not "pointless" at all, it's a government taking totally reasonable measures to ensure the greatest good for the greatest number. Nothing is ever going to be 100% safe, but to not take obvious measures to increase safety is negligent. I just have no sympathy for the anti-vaccine crowd an…

I think it was a reasonable question, which I read as: If I am vaccinated, and you are not, what do I gain from forcing you to get vaccinated? I am equally highly protected either way, right?

Vaccine effectiveness goes up the more people have them. So let’s say a vaccine confers 60% immunity (not what the actual vaccines provide, whose numbers are much more complicated), that is basically friction that slows the virus’s spread around. Now, if almost everyone is vaccinated, that friction is enough for the virus to fizzle out and the pandemic to end. If only a few people are vaccinated, then the virus still has a lot of friction free hosts to infect, and because it is thriving, it can even mutate faster to get around the vaccine’s friction.

Think of the vaccine as a collective attempt to stop the virus, not as a personal attempt. The more people are vaccinated, the higher chance this pandemic will end and we can get back to normal. Anti vaxxers are extremely annoying here. Also, hopefully the vaccine is approved for children soon.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#47

Post by fortran77 »

azth wrote: post #44

Does this include international travelers? Is it legal to prevent someone from going back to their country if they are not vaccinated? What about incoming passengers? Are they going to have ties with all incoming airlines to check vaccination status?

> Is it legal to prevent someone from going back to their country if they are not vaccinated?

I think that all depends on the country. I'd imagine it would be some variation of requiring a test and a quarantine.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#48

Post by fighterpilot »

nradov wrote: post #30
HarryHirsch wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm deeply uncomfortable with the picture all the anecdotes paint. Closer to home, a colleague reports that her sister-in-law brought Covid home from a conference and then have it to her husband. Both were vaccinated (Pfizer/J&J). Yes, being vaccinated keeps out out of hospital and out of a coffin, that's enough reason to get the shot. But it doesn't prevent synptomatic infection as well as we've been told (latest nu…

We can't limit large gathering forever. Since the virus can never be eradicated and will always be around the most likely scenario is that almost all of us will eventually get infected regardless of what infection control steps we take. Fortunately the vaccines are very effective at preventing bad outcomes.

Is getting COVID after having been jabbed twice within the last 6-months worse than the regular flu in terms of mortality risk or ICU risk?

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#49

Post by ghaff »

azth wrote: post #44

Does this include international travelers? Is it legal to prevent someone from going back to their country if they are not vaccinated? What about incoming passengers? Are they going to have ties with all incoming airlines to check vaccination status?

Legal is what the government of a given country says is legal. My understanding is that New Zealand for example allows returning travelers but they have to stay in designated quarantine hotels and those are basically unavailable.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#50

Post by koolba »

mabbo wrote: post #9

It's likely because of the election. Trudeau is calling for an election in the next few weeks. By announcing this now, he dares the opposition to say it's the wrong move, so that he can say he's protecting Canadians and the conservatives won't. Keep me in charge to stay safe. Only 10% of Canadians are opposed to vaccines, so it won't be an unpopular choice. And if the opposition says it's the right move, he can say "…

> Only 10% of Canadians are opposed to vaccines, so it won't be an unpopular choice.

What does “opposed to vaccines” even mean? Vaccines for anybody? Vaccines for themselves? Mandatory vaccines?

I sincerely doubt 10% of even Canada is in favor of mandating everyone be vaccinated to live what was once a normal life.

EDIT: I meant that last sentence in reverse, ie doubt that only 10% is against mandatory vaccinations. I’d wager it’s much higher.

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