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Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

cbc.ca

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Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#21

Post by ghiculescu »

sho wrote: post #17
ghiculescu wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it was a reasonable question, which I read as: If I am vaccinated, and you are not, what do I gain from forcing you to get vaccinated? I am equally highly protected either way, right?

No, you are not. If I am not vaccinated I am far more likely to carry the virus to you, and your vaccine, while good, is not 100% protection. So you have a significant decrease in your risk by forcing me to be vaccinated.

I think the slippery slope argument this creates is what is frightening a lot of people.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#22

Post by mensetmanusman »

sho wrote: post #14
HarryHirsch wrote: post #8

It's been established that vaccinated people can get Covid and that they can infect others. Just yesterday - an outbreak on a cruise ship: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/galvesto... This is a pointless exercise, people must get vaccinated to reduce the load on the healthcare system, but widespread vaccination on its own won't make enclosed spaces safe.

I don't understand this attitude. Yes vaccines aren't 100% perfct but they are a whole lot better than nothing. Same as masks. It's not "pointless" at all, it's a government taking totally reasonable measures to ensure the greatest good for the greatest number. Nothing is ever going to be 100% safe, but to not take obvious measures to increase safety is negligent. I just have no sympathy for the anti-vaccine crowd an…

Having survived Covid is better than some vaccines; forcing people to then pay Pharma companies is kind of a funny response, especially when there are still many people in the world that are under lockdown that want vaccines, you can easily argue it is not ethical.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#23

Post by maxerickson »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #4

It’s surprising since an 81% vaccination rate is already near the top of forecasts. Will a 90% or 95% rate make that much of a difference to justify forcing people to do so?

People are being forced to forgo transportation, they are not being forcibly vaccinated.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#24

Post by revnode »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #19
fzzzy wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically everyone with a current cash position is paying for it.

Yes, but it is also an investment, albeit a forced one. For example, if we didn’t do this the economy would crater and everyone would be poorer.

There are a lot of assumptions in that statement.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#25

Post by peytn »

jeromegv wrote: post #11
HarryHirsch wrote: post #8

It's been established that vaccinated people can get Covid and that they can infect others. Just yesterday - an outbreak on a cruise ship: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/galvesto... This is a pointless exercise, people must get vaccinated to reduce the load on the healthcare system, but widespread vaccination on its own won't make enclosed spaces safe.

Just stop twisting the truth. Yes vaccinated people can get covid, but at a much lower rate, and when they do, they spread it less. In fact in Ontario (largest province in Canada), you are 30x more likely to get COVID if you are unvaccinated (and 50x more likely to get in the ICU). Source https://twitter.com/EdTubb/status/1426182876383612931 and https://data.ontario.ca/dataset/covid-19-vaccine-data-in-ont... And ever…

The data shows you are 30x more likely to receive a positive COVID test result if you are unvaccinated, not that you are 30x more likely to “get COVID.” You need to give the distribution of tests between vaccinated/unvaccinated to draw the latter conclusion.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#26

Post by jollybean »

ghiculescu wrote: post #15
sho wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this attitude. Yes vaccines aren't 100% perfct but they are a whole lot better than nothing. Same as masks. It's not "pointless" at all, it's a government taking totally reasonable measures to ensure the greatest good for the greatest number. Nothing is ever going to be 100% safe, but to not take obvious measures to increase safety is negligent. I just have no sympathy for the anti-vaccine crowd an…

I think it was a reasonable question, which I read as: If I am vaccinated, and you are not, what do I gain from forcing you to get vaccinated? I am equally highly protected either way, right?

Yes, you can let the others do the work and often be just as well off. Society is a giant prisoner's dilemma (or more like 'grifers dilemma') like that.

That's why vaxxes are not like seatbelts, i.e. just affecting the user, they affect everyone.

We take vaccines to protect others as much as we do ourselves, because if we act responsibly then things will work out, but nearly everyone needs to participate.

In this case it's a little bit like 'positive responsibilities'. Normally, we could say 'don't steal' and that would be enough, but in this case it leans towards 'get your vax' i.e. an active action.

It's not as black and white, it's reasonable to have conscientious and other objectors. And of course I don't think 'requirements' are necessary unless specific health concerns. But on the whole, by and large, we need to get vaxxed here i.e. we need enough civic participants to move the situation forward so that the various kinds of objectors can survive so as to maintain their right to object, ironically.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#27

Post by smallerfish »

jeromegv wrote: post #11
HarryHirsch wrote: post #8

It's been established that vaccinated people can get Covid and that they can infect others. Just yesterday - an outbreak on a cruise ship: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/galvesto... This is a pointless exercise, people must get vaccinated to reduce the load on the healthcare system, but widespread vaccination on its own won't make enclosed spaces safe.

Just stop twisting the truth. Yes vaccinated people can get covid, but at a much lower rate, and when they do, they spread it less. In fact in Ontario (largest province in Canada), you are 30x more likely to get COVID if you are unvaccinated (and 50x more likely to get in the ICU). Source https://twitter.com/EdTubb/status/1426182876383612931 and https://data.ontario.ca/dataset/covid-19-vaccine-data-in-ont... And ever…

Behavior should be factored into those numbers - unvaccinated people are less likely to believe covid is serious (on average) ergo are more likely to be putting themselves in risky situations and/or less likely to wear masks. Studies are all over the place on vaccine effectiveness - clearly much better than zero, but not a reason to be complacent.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#28

Post by exdsq »

sleavey wrote: post #20
sho wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you are not. If I am not vaccinated I am far more likely to carry the virus to you, and your vaccine, while good, is not 100% protection. So you have a significant decrease in your risk by forcing me to be vaccinated.

Do we apply this thinking to any other public health threats? Smoking for example, particularly for those forced to be around smokers like their children? I'm curious to hear the arguments for why this virus needs to be treated differently to all others that have come before, and to other public health issues. Not trying to start a fight here. I just haven't been convinced yet why our old behaviour towards threats li…

Can you give some examples?

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#29

Post by carthusian »

sho wrote: post #14
HarryHirsch wrote: post #8

It's been established that vaccinated people can get Covid and that they can infect others. Just yesterday - an outbreak on a cruise ship: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/galvesto... This is a pointless exercise, people must get vaccinated to reduce the load on the healthcare system, but widespread vaccination on its own won't make enclosed spaces safe.

I don't understand this attitude. Yes vaccines aren't 100% perfct but they are a whole lot better than nothing. Same as masks. It's not "pointless" at all, it's a government taking totally reasonable measures to ensure the greatest good for the greatest number. Nothing is ever going to be 100% safe, but to not take obvious measures to increase safety is negligent. I just have no sympathy for the anti-vaccine crowd an…

>Yes vaccines aren't 100% perfct but they are a whole lot better than nothing.

Not if ADE happens with future strains, and the evidence is mounting that it will.

Re: Canada to require vaccinations for air and train passengers

#30

Post by nradov »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #18
jeromegv wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just stop twisting the truth. Yes vaccinated people can get covid, but at a much lower rate, and when they do, they spread it less. In fact in Ontario (largest province in Canada), you are 30x more likely to get COVID if you are unvaccinated (and 50x more likely to get in the ICU). Source https://twitter.com/EdTubb/status/1426182876383612931 and https://data.ontario.ca/dataset/covid-19-vaccine-data-in-ont... And ever…

I'm deeply uncomfortable with the picture all the anecdotes paint. Closer to home, a colleague reports that her sister-in-law brought Covid home from a conference and then have it to her husband. Both were vaccinated (Pfizer/J&J). Yes, being vaccinated keeps out out of hospital and out of a coffin, that's enough reason to get the shot. But it doesn't prevent synptomatic infection as well as we've been told (latest nu…

We can't limit large gathering forever. Since the virus can never be eradicated and will always be around the most likely scenario is that almost all of us will eventually get infected regardless of what infection control steps we take. Fortunately the vaccines are very effective at preventing bad outcomes.
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