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Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

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Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#131
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the discussion needs to happen. We don't get to sweep it under the rug.

Discussion, or circle jerk? I'm not arguing against the problem or trying to find solutions, but I saw nothing new or interesting in the linked post. "Same tired discussion" is right, every discussion on the topic here on HN plays out the exact same way and goes nowhere. It's the religion or politics equivalent of HN discussions.

Is there a polite way to say "circle jerk"? I've often found myself wanting to convey the idea without sounding so crass.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#132
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not arguing against the problem or trying to find solutions But you are arguing against the discussion, no? Instead of using this article (as much as you may feel it lacks substance) as an opportunity to discuss the problem further, and propose solutions or suggestions... Instead, you label it a circle jerk. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but you haven't done much to change that.

No, I haven't - because I still see nothing of substance in the article, and past experience gives me little faith that the discussion is going anywhere interesting. I don't see what I - or anyone - can contribute beyond "Sexism is bad, don't do it!". I'd be happy to be proven wrong. Anyway, I've said my piece, I see no reason to clutter up the thread with more meta discussion from me.

The most worrying thing to me is that despite the frequent discussions on HN, there are people in this thread who would rather assume that there is no problem, and this is just the way things are. Until blatant ignorance and misconceptions like this are dispelled, we need to have more discussions. Disclaimer: I'm male, studying STEM education and the gender gap.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#133
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have ignored the 18 years leading up to the university. Infants: Pink clothes (ok, no biggie) Toddler: dolls, playing mommy and dressup Preschool: more of toddler, perhaps getting into TV now. Oh look, none of the women on TV are into science or tech. Maybe I shouldn't be either. School: Come on Carly, let's play with dolls. But I wanna play on the computer. LOSER. Teenager: What kind of a nerd plays with electro…

As I recall from my own primary and secondary education, being a nerd who likes reading about science and math, and spends most of his time after school on his computer is not exactly encouraged by society either. Your parents want to cut down on your time spent in front of the computer, your dad wants you to go outside and play sports, the jocks at school give you shit, the girls pay no attention to you. Girls inter…

You're right, but I think girls have an even less incentive. Based on my experience as a father of a girl.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The keyword is here is perhaps . What are these obstacles that you speak off?

Imagine you are going to class of 100 students, 99 of which are women. It is fairly awkward, like walking into a men's club. Because I am generally quiet, mostly the guys pretended I wasn't there (definitely, better than the alternative.) They would talk about things I had no interest listening to - rated various women, and more innocent things like football. Anyway, every time I walked into that room I felt like I w…

That's it?

Huh. After all these years I find women really are the weaker sex.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#135
post #33

Note: I really would like an answer for the first question. What's the reason that everyone seems obsessed over getting more women into programming? Why do people care so much about having lots of women work in the software industry? Seriously, there seems to be this desire to get women into programming. If women really were into programming they would get into it despite the 'sexist creeps'. It might surprise all th…

The reason why people care about getting more women into programming is the same reason why we will never get rid of the creeps: there simply aren't that many people with the ability to write software. A job applicant that can write a function that implements bubble sort and comes for the interview on time and wearing clean clothes is already way above the median. I'm not thinking of any specific example here, but a key developer of a successful open source project can be a total jerk and still get plenty of job offers and even a few speaking invitations.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#136
post #33

Note: I really would like an answer for the first question. What's the reason that everyone seems obsessed over getting more women into programming? Why do people care so much about having lots of women work in the software industry? Seriously, there seems to be this desire to get women into programming. If women really were into programming they would get into it despite the 'sexist creeps'. It might surprise all th…

Perhaps women just don't want to get into computer science. And no amount of bending over backwards and trying to appeal to female programmers will get us to a situation of 50% female developers. Or perhaps they do want to get into computer science and there are a number of obstacles stopping them. Most people would agree with this. If you're going come up a controversial answer, you better have some solid evidence b…

> Or perhaps they do want to get into computer science and there are a number of obstacles stopping them. Most people would agree with this.

> If you're going come up a controversial answer, you better have some solid evidence backing you up.

I find these 2 statements, back to back, presented in a serious context about the most amusing thing I've seen in a long, long time.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The keyword is here is perhaps . What are these obstacles that you speak off?

Imagine you are going to class of 100 students, 99 of which are women. It is fairly awkward, like walking into a men's club. Because I am generally quiet, mostly the guys pretended I wasn't there (definitely, better than the alternative.) They would talk about things I had no interest listening to - rated various women, and more innocent things like football. Anyway, every time I walked into that room I felt like I w…

So... "obstacle" one is you're embarrassed by your gender?

What's the next one?

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#138
post #112
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Society does push both genders toward and away from particular careers; look at the imbalance in nurses or teachers for the other side. However, this has nothing to do with sexism in the workplace. It's not sexism in the software industry that causes society to push women away from the sciences. (That's not to say that sexism doesn't exist in the software industry or that it's not a problem.)

The guy I was replying to said: > Basically, women just aren't interested. I'm not sure it's an obstacle. I was pointing out that even if they are interested in science or computers, the deck is stacked against them from the time they are born.

Fair enough. I took his statement to refer to obstacles in the university and job setting. Perhaps that's not what he meant, though.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#139
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have ignored the 18 years leading up to the university. Infants: Pink clothes (ok, no biggie) Toddler: dolls, playing mommy and dressup Preschool: more of toddler, perhaps getting into TV now. Oh look, none of the women on TV are into science or tech. Maybe I shouldn't be either. School: Come on Carly, let's play with dolls. But I wanna play on the computer. LOSER. Teenager: What kind of a nerd plays with electro…

As I recall from my own primary and secondary education, being a nerd who likes reading about science and math, and spends most of his time after school on his computer is not exactly encouraged by society either. Your parents want to cut down on your time spent in front of the computer, your dad wants you to go outside and play sports, the jocks at school give you shit, the girls pay no attention to you. Girls inter…

Girls interested in computers may be portrayed as losers and antisocial and outcasts, but guys interested in computers have been portrayed as and treated by society as antisocial outcast losers for as long as there has been such a thing as a computer geek.

Popularity and clique mentality tends to be much more of an issue in female circles than with males. I would say that, if one were to assume either sex will get untold amounts of hell for dabbling in tech early on, a female will probably get it worse.

You also have to note that culturally, there is the "nerd" phenomenon backing guys being interested in tech. If a young woman decides to get into tech, she doesn't get the same label as a guy does, she's often labeled by her peers (which can be fairly brutal) as a loser, outcast, or just "not one of the girls".

Now, given that last point, take a female developer who's young and just trying to get into things: you'll never quite be "one of the guys", and by choosing this vocation you're throwing up a flag that states you're fine to never be "one of the girls". That's not a fun combination to go through your youth with.

Re: Why do we let sexist creeps pervade the software industry?

#140
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have ignored the 18 years leading up to the university. Infants: Pink clothes (ok, no biggie) Toddler: dolls, playing mommy and dressup Preschool: more of toddler, perhaps getting into TV now. Oh look, none of the women on TV are into science or tech. Maybe I shouldn't be either. School: Come on Carly, let's play with dolls. But I wanna play on the computer. LOSER. Teenager: What kind of a nerd plays with electro…

As I recall from my own primary and secondary education, being a nerd who likes reading about science and math, and spends most of his time after school on his computer is not exactly encouraged by society either. Your parents want to cut down on your time spent in front of the computer, your dad wants you to go outside and play sports, the jocks at school give you shit, the girls pay no attention to you. Girls inter…

Here's my view on this as a young female computer nerd: even with all the negative stereotypes attached to the male computer nerd, the fact remains that (a) he is typically male, and (b) he is not the only one of his ilk.

Let's consider the perfectly realistic scenario where society has only just recently realized that women are good for more than making sandwiches and childbearing, and can are capable of doing professional jobs as well as any man. Thanks, society! But since this change just happened recently, it is not unreasonable for there to still be fields that are male-dominated, despite the fact that women are just as able to work successfully in these fields. This is what gives us (a).

However, now that the floodgates have opened, women would really like to get into tech! But first, there's everything that cheez mentioned -- society's subtle socialization of women into their proper gender role. Boys are expected to tinker with and possibly break their toys, girls should be combing doll hair. And later, the boys who are nerds almost always find a nerd clique...which is almost entirely comprised of other boys. And the girl who wants to bond with somebody over her nerddom? All the boys are scared of her, for she is GIRL, a separate and incomprehensible breed from BOY. And there's condition (b).

Personal anecdote time: all of my friends (which is stretching it) in high school were guys because the other girls at my school thought computers and programming and video games were "a guy thing". and even among this group, I only had one who truly respected me (who brought me into the circle in the first place) -- to the rest, I was the token female to be awkward around and bounce sexist jokes off of. During that time, I was a huge tomboy and a huge jerk -- not because I don't like doing typically femme-y things, like wearing makeup and dresses, but because I felt like I'd be more accepted if I wore guy clothes and made dick jokes and, yes, sometimes even objectified women and acted homophobic (but only for men, because lesbians are hot, har har) for the sake of humor. Even being more "guy-like", though, never really earned me any respect -- even if I laughed at their jokes about "dumb bitches" and made my own, the fact remained that I was still born without a penis and could therefore never really relate. It was only after I got to college that I was able to recognize my disgusting attitude for what it was and realize that it was possible to be both femme and a CS major, though that would have earned me no love from most of my HS "friends".

tldr, men do have to overcome the barrier of being socialized to like sports and fast cars and what-have-you, but once they do, they've at least found more of their kind. Women, on the other hand, face that barrier two-fold -- both from outside and within the community, and that really, really sucks.

But I'm so glad that this conversation is happening, because I really do think that making the tech industry more welcoming to women is important -- and if it turns out that you're right, that at the end of the day more boys and few girls go into tech anyway, at least we're still a kinder, better, more accepting community. What do we have to lose from that?

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